Re: FT tactics vs slow ships, tiny ships are toast

WARNING! There are quite a few bits marked <sarcasm> in this post!

I'm sorry, Glen, but I'm beginning to get a distinct impression that
you have decided that your opponent's designs are unbeatable and that
you don't want to try anything which might shake you both out of that
belief. I hope this impression is false, but it - and your tone of
writing, as well - has coloured this reply.

Glen Bailey complained:

> btw, we allow firing out the rear arc.

Even when you used the main drive (if you didn't it's allowed anyway)? 

House rules are all very well, but they do change the game balance -
sometimes quite a bit. In this case you're suffering from it. If you
don't like the effect of your own house rules, change them or drop
them.

> 1) his BJs aren't that small.  Either 14 mass with a C2 beam, or mass
24 
> with a C2 beam and 2 SMRs, now redesigned as mass 34 and extended
> ranging the 2 SMRs.  Not easy to take out with any small to medium
>sized	ship.

If BJs aren't many they won't soak up enough incoming missiles. If they
aren't small and cheap they're decent missile targets in their own
right. If they are many but not small and cheap they are *way* too
expensive. In short, BJs have to be small, cheap and many.

5-6 DD-sized ships aren't many, aren't particularly small, and aren't
very cheap. In short, they don't work very well as BJs.

> 2) so you come in from out of range to within 12".  Unless you have
the
> initiative, more than likely at close range he'll destroy or cripple
half your
> force, you get 1 shot to do some damage, then his second ship
destroys
> or cripples the remainder.  So now many points are tied up in ships
that
> are either destroyed or out of the fight. And what does your 1 shot
do?
> Dink some armor?  Take out 1 very small BJ (leaving another 5)?

Dink some armour? Think again. 6-8 dice per small fry (subpacks) tend
to do more than that, particularly against "very small BJs" - which you
yourself just claimed that he had none. Usually quite enough to put a
nasty dent into a super destroyer or escort cruiser as well, though.

Kill BJs are exactly what the BJ-killers are there to do. However, if
he doesn't have BJs you can lead with your main ships instead. No need
to clear away units which don't exist <shrug>

> Have you faced 26 beam dice of damage from one ship?

<sarcasm>
I've played Full Thrust for the past six years. What do you think,
could I possibly have faced big, overgunned ships occasionally?
</sarcasm>

>Figure on six of those being 6s?  Add in four 5s.  Figure on two of
>the rerolls as 6s. It's not pretty to be on the receiving end.

The average damage from 24 dice is 19.2. The dice you list above add up
to 18, plus probably some 4s you've forgotten - may or may not be
important, depending on whether or not you use screens. Either way, it
doesn't look that much above average.

>I'll see if I can get one of his designs.  I've created various
>similar 
>designs:
>(think of the WW2 BBs)
>Mass 184, Maneuver 1, FTL, weak hull, 20 armor;
>weapons: 8 C3s with 5 arcs, 4 at AP+FP+F+FS+AS, 4 at >FP+AP+A+AS+FS
>(4 quad turrets, 2 forward and 2 aft); 2 C2s with 6 arcs
>(secondaries); 8 C1s;
> 2 pulse torpedoes, AP+FP, FS+AS (I don't know why he added these
>recently);

Probably because you're using either screens or heavy armour.

> 6 PDS, 1 ADFC (so if two "BBs" are present that's 12 PDS to deal
>with), 4 FCs.
>Cost: 658
> 
>Sorry, that's 36 beam dice.  Make it 72 with 2 of these in a 1500 pt
>fleet.

Try this ship to fight it with:

Mass 184
Cost 643
Thrust-4
FTL
Weak hull (37 boxes)
15 armour
Screen-1
4 FC
1 ADFC
6 PDS
28 Class-2 batteries (FP/F/FS or F/FP/FA arcs)

This ship is fast enough to avoid the 24-36mu range band completely. It
outguns the sample barge above by 30-40% once inside 24mu, as long as
you keep him in your forward 180 arc - which shouldn't be that
difficult given the differences in thrust rating. Oh, and those 30-40%
don't include the effects of your screen which stops about 20% of his
beam fire.

If you don't like putting all eggs in only two baskets, split it up
into two Mass 90-ish BCs instead.

If you can, maneuver to end your movement in the spot he occupied the
previous turn - it is guaranteed to be in his rear arc, which cuts his
firepower by at least a third. Enjoy rolling 56 dice against an
unscreened target (average damage 44.8) to his 24 dice against screen-1
(average damage 15.2). Even if he wins initiative he's unlikely to
inflict a single threshold on you with one salvo, while you're quite
likely to inflict *two* thresholds on him with your salvo.

If you can't get into his rear arc, approach from ahead but turn aside
and circle him in the 12-24mu range band instead of overshooting. No
need to let him use those C1 batteries or get good hit numbers for his
pulse torps. You only roll 28 dice per salvo, but OTOH he's reduced to
18 dice and up to 1 pulse torp.

>Figure the rest of the points are SMR missile boats that act as BJs
>as well.

"The rest of the points" in a 1500 pt battle using two of the above
barges are 184. About enough to buy 3 Mass-16 ships, each of which
can't possibly carry more than 2 SMRs - and that assumes a slow,
brittle ship, too, otherwise it's 1 SMR per ship.

<sarcasm>
Gee, I'm really scared of that SMR salvo... and three BJs protecting
two targets are absolutely guaranteed to divert enough SMs to protect
his ships if I choose to buy SMRs of my own instead of C2-3 batteries. 
</sarcasm>

If his capitals are smaller (likely, if they only throw 24 dice at
close range) he can have more SMRs. Handle them just like he handles
yours - point defence and ADFC - or dodge them.

>Tell me a tactic that works against this.  Cinematic movement.  

You've already recieved posts from several people which tell you just
that.

Read them.

>I know your first response: SMs.  

You obviously didn't read my first response to your initial request for
help, then. My immediate reaction, quite early in the post, was "use
3-arc C2 batteries".

<sarcasm>
3-arc C2 batteries are not the same as SMs AFAIK.
</sarcasm>

>Give me a sample fleet of this and then try one 
>without overdoing the SMs (I try to stay in a Star Trek flavor since I
>use those miniatures most of the time).

If you use SMs, you need to spend between one-third and half of your
total weapon Mass on them - otherwise you have too few of them to make
an impression, or else don't have enough secondaries to clean up the
mess left by the missiles. What you are saying is effectively this:

 "Give me a sample fleet using SMs, but make sure it is suboptimal
because otherwise I won't use it." 

Your choice to use a poor fleet mix of course, but don't blame me when
you lose.

Your problems seem to be:

1) You use a house rule which favours him (rear-arc fire allowed even
while using the main drive)
2) You don't know how to aim or dodge SMs - in fact, according to your
own words you don't know how to maneuver at all
3) Your ships come from a specific background, and are therefore
severely restricted as to what weapons and fire arcs you consider
"acceptable".

You have only yourself to blame for 3), and yourself or your gaming
group for 1). I suspect you'll overcome 2) eventually - as I said
earlier, it took me quite some time and a number of spectacular defeats
to learn how to maneuver well in Cinematic.

Regards,

Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry