Re: [FT] SMLs and Banzai Jammers

Izenberg, Noam wrote:

> I guess I disagree. It depends how you go about it. Which would be
scenario
> specific. If you brought a couple class 3 or even class 4 potshooters
along
> and kept them at max range, you could slowly pick off the soaks before
> closing distance. If you're SM equipped, chances are you're more
> maneuverable and faster (like FSE) and can be the one to pick the time
when
> the forces close.

If you're using FB1, and FSE, you have very few 3Beams. As regards
manouvers, YMMV depending on cinematic vs vector, fixed vs floating
table etc.

> > As for Granaatscherven, it's the use of 25-30pt corvettes (which
anyone
> > can use) rather than purpose-built banzai jammers that worry me.
> 
> I rather use 18-21 point scouts.Cheaper and more infurating (yet more
> vulnerable to sweeping).

Right. Not everyone has such cheapies, though. A Stoschen-S is about
right, as those that survive get to shoot back quite effectively.
 
> > Just try a battle where one side has the FSE but no SMLs in the
mags,
> > the other side has only 75% of the points values (to simulate the
loss
> > of virtually the complete corvette force that was doing the
jamming).

> Such a battle would be no fun for the FSE, but I don't believe that
that
> situation is the necessary result of SML vs. Granaatscherven.

Hmmm.... I can see you are made of sterner stuff...Cardinal Fang, bring
out.... the Comfy Chair!
But seriously, I guess the only way of convincing you is for you to try
using an FSE fleet vs a competent opponent who uses the above tactic. If
despite your best efforts you lose in exactly the way described above,
you should be convinced. And if perchance you should win, or even make
it close to an even fight, please tell me and the list how the
farnarckle you did it!
 
> About alternate tactics. Wave attacks, Fighter/SM mixes, Beam support. 

For FSE, Fighter/SM mixes are reasonable. I've tried them with some
success. Got enough of the small stuff to have a decent chance of the
SMs getting through. Then found out that my heavily damaged carrier
(sans fighters, who had died in droves) was the only ship I had left due
to being out-beamed 5:1. And faced a cherry Battledreadnaught with 2
heavy cruisers.

> Make SM's a late punch system instead of a fast strike system.

"Late" is right. As in "The Late Arthur Dent". It's very much a case of
"use 'em or lose 'em"

> Losing the ability
> to obliterate an enemy at 29" with saturation SM's while he plinks at
you
> with a few class 3's will only add challenge, terror, and enjoyment to
your
> game.

If the opponent manouvres, you have enough of the CTE factor in aiming
the darn things anyway. 
 
> Well, that is a straw man, since level 4 screens are not a real game
system

But if a 100% beam defence _did_ exist, would it not be neccessary to
fix them? Because a 100% SM defence _does_ exist.

> I have no wish to disparage anyone's intelligence.

No need, I can do that for myself <g>.

> Chances are you could show me a thing or two about SM's

And vice-versa I'm sure. That's self-evident from your posts.

> I freely admit my arguments come at least
> in part from a personal dislike of SM's as a system. I have no desire
to see
> them become more powerful in any way.

> That's my prejudice, so you can take
> my comments with the size grain of salt you deem appropriate.

IOW a matter of personal preference, fair enough. What's unusual is that
you not only recognise it but admit it publically. I just wish I could
recognise my own prejudices - they undoubtedly exist - and deal with
them the same way.
It's times like these that I'm really _glad_ to be on this mailing list,
discussing things with people who are "after my own heart" even though
we disagree radically on certain issues.
Reminds me of when I was team leading some Israelis working on an IDF
submarine combat system. "2 Israelis, 3 Opinions" as they say. But
that's another story.
 
> >It's too bad we're not physically located anywhere near each other,
as
> >I'd like to demonstrate my points via a game or two. I'm sure you
could
> >teach me something, but I think I'd convince you.
> 
> Possibly. My NI vs. IF game with Laserlight confirmed to me how much I
> dislike SM's though. It's unfortunate that the nation I've chosen to
develop
> has such an SM-heavy primary adversary.

Well, that's up to you. By that, I mean that you could always have the
NI  deciding to refit their ships for lesser logistical burden. Or have
less SM-equipped variants. See the history of the French Navy at the end
of the 19th century when they switched from the "Jeune Ecole" of
Commerce raiding and torpedo-boats to a more conventional style. During
WW1 they still had some of the more radical ships in service. e.g. the
"Foudre" was originally a gunboat-carrier, which supplied pressurised
steam to small short-range torpedoboats without boilers. In WW1 she was
converted to a seaplane carrier. 

On other matters, more GZGpedia related, some work needs doing on OU-NI
relations. Possibly the OU has a secret agreement to provide planets to
the NI in case things turn to custard again. In any event, given the
number of Red Sea Pedestrians in Oz, there'd be a strong tendency to
give such a guarantee. We also have a large number of other peoples from
the middle east, but somehow when people get to Oz they tend to lose a
lot of their mutual hatreds. I've personally known Poles who married
Russians, and Greeks who married Turks here. And a former member of the
SS Polizei division whose neighbours on both sides were not just Jewish,
but Hungarian Jewish, and knew about his background. Which says a lot
about the human ability to forgive, while not forgetting.
Maybe it's because we're all to busy down here fighting off the spiders,
sharks and snakes. Not forgetting the Drop Bears <g>
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