Re: DSII for the 2020s

In message <199912022140.WAA15314@d1o29.telia.com> "Oerjan Ohlson"
writes:
> David Brewer wrote:
> 
> > > * HKPs... don't work with the current PSB. The blurb describes
them 
> > > as  "...relatively small-calibre (but VERY long) barrel to develop
> > > hyper-velocities for its superdense long-rod penetrator rounds
..",
> > > and goes on to describe two pressure-driven launch mechanisms (LP
> > > and  "plasma reaction").
> > 
> > I've never liked HKP's. Three different kinetic energy guns seem
> > like at least one too many.
> 
> Yep. Particularly when one of them is physically... well, maybe not
> *impossible*, but extremely unpractical.

Impractical hardly seems the issue. Jon copied out the fluff text
from a David Drake book.

> > Old Dirtside only had one, the mass driver cannon (as well as a HEAT

> > ammo rocket-assisted gun and the familiar DFFG and HEL).
> 
> Modern HVCs are able to fire HEAT, KE of various types (APDS, APFSDS,
> etc), HESH (poor vs vehicles, very good against buildings etc),

Doesn't 120mm HESH ammo hold the current long-range tank-kill
record at around 6km? It was, of course, designed for destroying
concrete fortifications in WWII.

> HE (ie,
> anti-personnel frag charges) etc. Restricting them to rocket-assisted
> HEAT only seems a bit too restrictive to me :-/

I didn't think of them as HVC-like guns (I no longer have a copy
of DS1 for reference) but as low-pressure guns, like the Russian
73mm or 100mm guns used on the BMP-1 and -3 respectively... eg.
not a weapon capable of throwing KE penetrators about. I don't
recall if the fluff text specifically said HEAT. It really isn't
very relevant whether the shell was HEAT, HESH or some sort of
explosively forged or propelled penetrator. In game terms the
penetration did not vary on range, while the penetration for MDC's
did.

The general lack of anti-personnel ammo is just one of those DS
things, I 'spose. Whether a tank-scale railgun is likely to be
able to throw a large-calibre HE-frag-type bomb is something I,
as yet, don't know.

> > Playtest Dirtside II had a smart-munition-firing gun, but I
> > 'spose that's too similar to a GMS.
> 
> ...which could be taken to represent the current Russian fashion of
> launching missiles through the main gun of an MBT as well as the more
> common approach of carrying a separate missile launcher somewhere.

Sure, although, again, you don't need an HVC for that. The BMP-3's
low-pressure 100mm gun also does this.

> > > * Allow ADS to intercept incoming artillery rounds - I'm 99%
certain
> > > that there will be at least one such system in active service
within 5
> > > years. Of course it will pretty soon be countered by carrier
shells
> > > filled with decoy submunitions etc; in DSII terms this is an
opposed
> > > dieroll between the quality of the ADS and the quality of the
incoming
> > > salvo.
> > 
> > About how far away is a submunition-carrying artillery shell when
> > it seperates? Is it feasable to bring it down before this point?
> 
> IIRC within a km of the target, which is deemed close enough at least
> for the laser-based ADS under development now.

Thanks for the info.

> > > * Allow infantry GMS/L teams in open-topped vehicles to fire their
> > > missiles "effectively" (ie, able to hit and inflict actual
damage), but
> > > at a one die-shift penalty in missile guidance (ie, Basic rolls
1D4,
> > > Enhanced 1D6, Superior 1D8).
> > 
> > Do you mean open-topped or open-hatched? Several different APCs
> > seem to allow this, German Marders, UK Warriors.
> 
> Good point. Not sure if the weapons used in these cases correspond to 
> IAVR (GMS/P) or GMS/L, though - ie, were they LAW-80/AT4 types, or
> Milan and similar?

Milan, in both cases.

Are oprn-topped vehicles popular with anybody who plays DS2?
Closed vehicle miniatures are much easier to cast...
 
[...]
> > >	- Flechette rounds: Counts as HEF against Militia and Line
infantry,
> > > as MAK against PA, and completely ineffective against armoured
vehicles
> > > (armour level 1 or more *in the front*). (Flechettes are very good
at
> > > penetrating cloth, kevlar fibres, earth, timber etc, but literally
> > > piss-poor against hard armour). In addition, flechette missions
will
> > > NOT set fire to things like woods or buildings.
> > 
> > In my (very) limited understanding, current arty submuntion are
> > usually dual-purpose with both fragmentation and a shaped charge
> > attacking any vehicle unfortunate enough to be hit directly.
> > Wouldn't this still be the case for a flechette submunition?...
> > that they would be equally as effective against vehicles as HEF?
> 
> Current artillery submunition carrier rounds (the term doesn't usually
> include flechette rounds) correspond either to DSII HEF (cluster
> rounds, 20-50 subs in each shell) or to MAK (Bonus-style, currently 2
> subs per shell).
>
> Flechettes are 1-2 inches long and up to some mm in diameter; solid
> metal, no explosives, several hundred (in some cases - 152mm rounds
> IIRC - several thousand) in each shell. Think of them as anti-infantry
> long rod penetrators. Nothing like them in DSII at the moment.

Actually, this is what the fluff text for MAK describes... "a
cloud of kinetic penetrators". Wouldn't the KE of the penetrators
depend very much on the tube launching them? meaning a mortar has
a lower muzzle velocity than a gun, therefore the flechettes will
fall to earth much faster and with (as endless detailed of late)
more KE.

I do, however, see what you mean now. I was envisioning your
flechettes being scattered like fragmentation from HEF rounds.

-- 
David Brewer