Re: DSII for the 2020s

Hey guys regardinmg any round that fires discarding Sabot, I've never
seen this
mentioned in any mini-rules but there are definate hazardous conditions
to
consider.

1. If your tanks are firing chemical propellant rounds: The overpressure
on a
120mm main tank gun can kill a soldier within a ninety degree arc out to
200
meters.

2. Discarding sabots can kill soldiers between 200-1000 meters. (I've
seen the
peices out on teh range, flung out this far like shrapnel.

Los

David Brewer wrote:

> In message <199912022140.WAA15314@d1o29.telia.com> "Oerjan Ohlson"
writes:
> > David Brewer wrote:
> >
> > > > * HKPs... don't work with the current PSB. The blurb describes
them
> > > > as  "...relatively small-calibre (but VERY long) barrel to
develop
> > > > hyper-velocities for its superdense long-rod penetrator rounds
..",
> > > > and goes on to describe two pressure-driven launch mechanisms
(LP
> > > > and  "plasma reaction").
> > >
> > > I've never liked HKP's. Three different kinetic energy guns seem
> > > like at least one too many.
> >
> > Yep. Particularly when one of them is physically... well, maybe not
> > *impossible*, but extremely unpractical.
>
> Impractical hardly seems the issue. Jon copied out the fluff text
> from a David Drake book.
>
> > > Old Dirtside only had one, the mass driver cannon (as well as a
HEAT
> > > ammo rocket-assisted gun and the familiar DFFG and HEL).
> >
> > Modern HVCs are able to fire HEAT, KE of various types (APDS,
APFSDS,
> > etc), HESH (poor vs vehicles, very good against buildings etc),
>
> Doesn't 120mm HESH ammo hold the current long-range tank-kill
> record at around 6km? It was, of course, designed for destroying
> concrete fortifications in WWII.
>
> > HE (ie,
> > anti-personnel frag charges) etc. Restricting them to
rocket-assisted
> > HEAT only seems a bit too restrictive to me :-/
>
> I didn't think of them as HVC-like guns (I no longer have a copy
> of DS1 for reference) but as low-pressure guns, like the Russian
> 73mm or 100mm guns used on the BMP-1 and -3 respectively... eg.
> not a weapon capable of throwing KE penetrators about. I don't
> recall if the fluff text specifically said HEAT. It really isn't
> very relevant whether the shell was HEAT, HESH or some sort of
> explosively forged or propelled penetrator. In game terms the
> penetration did not vary on range, while the penetration for MDC's
> did.
>
> The general lack of anti-personnel ammo is just one of those DS
> things, I 'spose. Whether a tank-scale railgun is likely to be
> able to throw a large-calibre HE-frag-type bomb is something I,
> as yet, don't know.
>
> > > Playtest Dirtside II had a smart-munition-firing gun, but I
> > > 'spose that's too similar to a GMS.
> >
> > ...which could be taken to represent the current Russian fashion of
> > launching missiles through the main gun of an MBT as well as the
more
> > common approach of carrying a separate missile launcher somewhere.
>
> Sure, although, again, you don't need an HVC for that. The BMP-3's
> low-pressure 100mm gun also does this.
>
> > > > * Allow ADS to intercept incoming artillery rounds - I'm 99%
certain
> > > > that there will be at least one such system in active service
within 5
> > > > years. Of course it will pretty soon be countered by carrier
shells
> > > > filled with decoy submunitions etc; in DSII terms this is an
opposed
> > > > dieroll between the quality of the ADS and the quality of the
incoming
> > > > salvo.
> > >
> > > About how far away is a submunition-carrying artillery shell when
> > > it seperates? Is it feasable to bring it down before this point?
> >
> > IIRC within a km of the target, which is deemed close enough at
least
> > for the laser-based ADS under development now.
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
> > > > * Allow infantry GMS/L teams in open-topped vehicles to fire
their
> > > > missiles "effectively" (ie, able to hit and inflict actual
damage), but
> > > > at a one die-shift penalty in missile guidance (ie, Basic rolls
1D4,
> > > > Enhanced 1D6, Superior 1D8).
> > >
> > > Do you mean open-topped or open-hatched? Several different APCs
> > > seem to allow this, German Marders, UK Warriors.
> >
> > Good point. Not sure if the weapons used in these cases correspond
to
> > IAVR (GMS/P) or GMS/L, though - ie, were they LAW-80/AT4 types, or
> > Milan and similar?
>
> Milan, in both cases.
>
> Are oprn-topped vehicles popular with anybody who plays DS2?
> Closed vehicle miniatures are much easier to cast...
>
> [...]
> > > >   - Flechette rounds: Counts as HEF against Militia and Line
infantry,
> > > > as MAK against PA, and completely ineffective against armoured
vehicles
> > > > (armour level 1 or more *in the front*). (Flechettes are very
good at
> > > > penetrating cloth, kevlar fibres, earth, timber etc, but
literally
> > > > piss-poor against hard armour). In addition, flechette missions
will
> > > > NOT set fire to things like woods or buildings.
> > >
> > > In my (very) limited understanding, current arty submuntion are
> > > usually dual-purpose with both fragmentation and a shaped charge
> > > attacking any vehicle unfortunate enough to be hit directly.
> > > Wouldn't this still be the case for a flechette submunition?...
> > > that they would be equally as effective against vehicles as HEF?
> >
> > Current artillery submunition carrier rounds (the term doesn't
usually
> > include flechette rounds) correspond either to DSII HEF (cluster
> > rounds, 20-50 subs in each shell) or to MAK (Bonus-style, currently
2
> > subs per shell).
> >
> > Flechettes are 1-2 inches long and up to some mm in diameter; solid
> > metal, no explosives, several hundred (in some cases - 152mm rounds
> > IIRC - several thousand) in each shell. Think of them as
anti-infantry
> > long rod penetrators. Nothing like them in DSII at the moment.
>
> Actually, this is what the fluff text for MAK describes... "a
> cloud of kinetic penetrators". Wouldn't the KE of the penetrators
> depend very much on the tube launching them? meaning a mortar has
> a lower muzzle velocity than a gun, therefore the flechettes will
> fall to earth much faster and with (as endless detailed of late)
> more KE.
>
> I do, however, see what you mean now. I was envisioning your
> flechettes being scattered like fragmentation from HEF rounds.
>
> --
> David Brewer