Re: [FT] Ship morale

I was debating posting this, but we've got enough historical interest
here I
think I will.  I don't know if this supports my position or if it's
irrelevant,
but it's interesting regardless.

Note:  The positions One and Two are the essense of debate at hand as I
understand them.

The individual who wrote this works on the US's battleships in a
consulting/restoration capacity and has demonstrated a great deal of
knowledge
on naval matters.  I don't know if that is pertinent, but there you have
it.

Brushman
***********Begin quote
<< One:  A ship pulling out of a battle for any reason would get it's
captain
court-martialed for cowardice in the face of the enemy and probably
executed.

 Two:  A captain has sufficient discretion to to determine if his ship
is still
a capable fighting force and would therefore be able to pull out of a
fight if
it was sufficiently damaged that in his estimation it could no longer
contribute to the fight and was in serious jeopardy of being lost for no
reason.
>>

     Number one is reminescent of the French Army in WW I.  Though faced
by murderous machine gun fire, artillery and mortars, a retreat from the
charge meant death by firing squad.  At least for a few chosen members
of the
unit to "set an example".  Kirk Douglas made a movie documenting that
several
years ago.  Sorry, I forgot the title.

     Number two is the most accepted for a ship having to withdraw from
battle.  The only time a Captain would be disciplined would be if he did
not
announce his need and time of withdrawal to the fleet commander if his
communications systems were working.  Generally, a modern fleet
commander
would see if a ship is too badly damaged to either carry on a meaningful
fight or would be hazardous to its own allies (in the way of line of
fire
from a replacement ship).

     A ship Captain could get into trouble, however, if he recklessly
placed his ship in danger when a more reasonable course of action could
have
been done.  Generally, though, in combat this is more or less overlooked
unless the battle was lost as a result of a reckless action.

     An example of overlooking a reckless action is during the Korean
War,
the Battleship Missouri responded to a call for fire support by Marines
pinned down by a blockhouse on the other side of a bridge.  The shots
would
have called for absolute maximum elevation of the 16 inch guns to 45
degrees.
 However, calculations done at the time of construction indicated that
any
elevation greater than 42 degrees would put too much of a load on the
turret
path roller bearings.  So, the skipper deliberately beached the 57,000
ton
ship on a sandbar by flooding his wing tanks.  He listed the ship 4
degrees,
thus giving the barrels the ability to elevate to 45 degrees relative to
Earth.	He made the shots at 26 miles, dead on and the Marines were able
to
walk across the bridge.

     On the other hand, a few years later under another Captain, the
Missouri was going into port through Hampton Roads off of Norfolk,
Virginia.
The helmsman was a former harbor pilot of the area and knew where the
shoals
were.  However, the Captain ordered a hard right rudder.  The helmsman
did
not turn the rudder as he knew from personal experience that a sandbar
would
have built up in that area during that time of year.  The Captain
refused the
helmsman's explanation of why he should not turn that way and said,
"When I
order a rudder change, I expect it to be carried out without question."

     "Yes Sir."

     CRUUUNCH!

     That Captain's career was cut REAL short.

     On the other hand, there have been cases where a ship Captain was
disciplined for NOT going into Harm's Way, but those are very, very few
and I
can't really think of any at the moment except for the fictional
scenario in
the movie The Caine Mutiny.

     Sometimes, ship Captains are made the scape-goats just so the DOD
can
put a finger to blame on a particular person rather than the entire
establishment.	A good case in point is the Captain of the Indianapolis.
After delivering the Atomic bomb parts to Tinnian Island, the ship was
ordered to another port at all possible speed.	A Japanese submarine
torpedoed the ship.  Though most of the crew survived the sinking, most
of
those were eaten by sharks.  The Captain was blamed for not going on a
zig-zag course though the Japanese sub commander testified (at an
American
court martial no less) that zig-zagging makes no difference at all. 
Usually
it slows the ship down enough to get a better shot.  So he would have
sunk
the cruiser regardless.

     No blame was laid on the lack of communications between point of
departure and expected point of arrival noting that a cruiser was
several
days late.  No search planes were sent out and it was only by chance a
passing plane spotted the few remaining survivors in the water.  No
blame was
laid on the command center that ordered "all possible speed" which
usually
meant to forget zig-zag.

     But the Captain was blamed, reduced in rank, cashiered out.  Later
he
committed suicide.

     Well, I hope I somewhat answered your questions.  Good luck.

***********End quote

ScottSaylo@aol.com on 07/19/99 02:52:26 PM

Please respond to gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
							      
							      
							      
  To:	       gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU			      
							      
  cc:	       (bcc: Bill Brush/InfSys/Revenue) 	      
							      
							      
							      
  Subject      Re: [FT] Ship morale			      
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In a message dated 7/19/99 1:56:16 PM EST, bbrush@rev.state.ne.us
writes:

<<  The basic question that is being answered when
 the Leadership roll is being made is:	Is the ship still in good enough
shape to
 fight in the opinion of the captain (not the admiral)?  For the most
part a
good
 captain is going to stay in there until his admiral tells him to leave,
but
 captains are only human and sometimes they are going to decide their
ship has
 had enough and attempt to save it to fight another day.  Sometimes a
captain
is
 going to have a difference of opinion from the Admiral.  This may get
him
 court-martialed, but at least his crew will be alive to attend his
 court-martial. >>

Indeed! Even a courts martial will recognize the excuse of "sauve qui
peut"
Which is French for save your own ass! It is a military precept that
once the
cause is lost every man and officer becomes responsible for saving
himself as
best he can. Navy's recognize it too.