Re: NI/NAC AAR & Stealth

...Snip...JTL
> I had always thought a ships' sensors were independednt of FCS, and
FCS
> was specifically the weapons control system. Can't you have a scout
ship
> with only ships sensor's a PDS or two, and no weapons or FCS?
XXX
     Basically correct, the basic ship sensors are freebe and
indistructable.
(and should be considered on every ship built even those with E- or
S-sensors.
This sensor does not appear on the SSD and therefor cannot be
destroyed.)
     In FT/MT you cannot have a ship without an FCS, the FCS is 'issued'
by class of ship. (You may buy additional)   In the FB the FCS is
purchased
as a system and therefore it is possible to build a ship without a FCS
as you 
describe the scout ship.   JTL
XXX 
...Snip...JTL
> Hardly. FCS targets the weapons. Stealth confuses the FCS. It doesn't
> matter whether the FCS controls all the weapons or one.
XXX
     I'm sorry! It does matter.  The neat game mechanic of 'range eater'
is not valid if the central FCS is what is affected by the 'Stealth/ECM
thing'. JTL
XXX
 Again, I think
> we're simply under different PSB assumptions. If mine are clearly
> violating the game spirit, I'll try to revise them, but I'm not yet
> convinced that's the case.
XXX 
     I am trying to operate in the real world for much of the
discussion,
and trying to advise you of possible problems in the current FT/MT/FB
rules
that your use of PSB to justify the game device will possibly cause.  
JTL
Suggestions:
1) Define what 'Stealth' is and what you want it to be.
2) Define what 'ECM' is and what you want it to be.
3) Try to devise a way to use the 'range eater' game device as a new
   weapon rather than hiding under an illogical PSB explanition of 
   stealth/ECM.   JTL	
XXX
> > A central FCS is no longer necessary to control, detect or direct
the
> > ships
> > weapons.   Just throw the FCS away an mount more weapons.
> 
> That's fine if you want weapons that can't target anything. ;-) I am
_not_
> advocating or claiming individual weapon FCSSeeing a target, and
knowing
> its general location is one thing - that's the role of ships sensors.
FCS'
> role is to pinpoint the target so that weapons can hit it. One or all
of a
> ships weapons use the targeting of the FCS. 
XXX
     Having pinpointed your position when your ship crossed the 24 inch
line,
my 'A/3' can fire at your because you are 'target locked' at 22 inches. 

There is no logical reason that my 'B/2' cannot fire on you at 22 inches
because
you are 'target locked' and within range.    JTL
XXX
Again, if my understanding is
> fundamentally flawed, so be it. I'll have to revise my PSB.
XXX
     Agreed!   JTL
XXX
> >	 Also note that if the target lock is an individual thing, then
one
> > should
> > check for each mount individually.
> 
> That's abstracted by the single FCS controlling multiple weapons.
> 
> >	 Also note that a ship while in 'stealth' mode would not be
using
> > search
> > or target sensors, and therefore the 'stealth' ship cannot fire its
> > weapons
> > while in 'stealth' mode.  JTL
> 
> Except that stealth is not an active system. 
XXX
     True, but your search and target sensors are active and can be
tracked 
quite accurately by my sensors.   JTL
XXX 
It's integral to the hull
> structure of the ship. It's not, in this conception, and either-or
> silent-running kind of system. It was originally modeled after the
Minbari
> of B5, who could operate and fire with impunity while the enemy could
not
> lock on. While on B5 stealth is a ships system, for FT, I though it
would
> work better as a hull modification.
XXX
   Then let me tell you how I accomplish the same thing!
  
Sensors come in three grades:
Standard - range  60 inches.
Enhanced - range 120 inches.
Superior - range 240 inches.
     Sensors may only detect mass values beyond half range.
     Sensors may detect and range on any sensor of equal or lesser
grade.
And to make matters interesting, we use ECM.
ECM	- divides the range of sensors in half.
	  (Or, reduces the effective sensor grade by one level)
To your anology, The Mimbari are equipped with superior sensors and the
others have standard or enhanced sensors, the Mimbari may not be
detected 
by the others because the others do not have equipment to receive the 
Mimbari transmissions.	Does this sound reasonable?   JTL
XXX
> > > Same as for ships. It's not the sensors. It's the target lock.
It's realy
> > > just PSB for the game effect, but it is consistent.

> That adds unnecessary complexity, which is abstracted by the simple
> 'treat as screen 2'. I wanted stealth to be as simple to apply as any
> other system in FT. Forcing a lockon roll for each weapon and then
another
> roll to hit is complexity few would want to add. reducing effective
range
> bands for weapons has the same effect and is far more elegant, IMHO.
XXX
     Stealth is simple, materials and design reduce the sensor signal
return.
Its all the active things that are going on that bother me.   When you
get to 
ECM what is going to be left to do that your stealth does not already
do?
JTL.
XXX
Bye for now,
John L>