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Gulf 91 v Europe 85

From: Peter Grining <grining@w...>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:52:39 +1100
Subject: Gulf 91 v Europe 85

>Fire control is opposed with signature and terrain, not opponent's fire
control. Tom Clancy and several >writers with experience on M1 tanks
usually quote 95% accuracy. In the Gulf war battle of 73 Easting, quoted
>by Tom Clancy, seems to indicate a one shot, one kill rate. OpFor in
NTC in the US, also quoted by Tom >Clancy, again seems to confirm this.
Clancy also quotes US troops in Iraq as saying the Iraqis were just
OpFor but a lot easier!

Here's some hit probabilities for some modern tank cannon. These are
hand from a gentleman who is involved in tanks:
					1000m	1500m	2000m
105mm M68 cannon with M735 round	98%	87%	74% (M60A3 in
105mm L7 cannon with M111 round 95%	81%	67% (Merkava 1 during
1982 Lebanon
120mm M256 cannon with M827 round	98%	84%	70% (M1A1 in
Other sources:
125mm 2A46 cannon APFSDS		87%	66%	46% (T-64/72/80
in 1980s, later improved
in the T-80UM)
115mm 2A20 firing BR-5		86%	60%	43% (T-62)
I've also heard 80% at 3000 metres/75% at 2500 metres (Leclerc firing
whilst stationary / moving), with M1A1 figures 500 metres less. Then
the US gunners had lots of pratice before the ground war started. Also
M829A1 would have been more accurate than the types in the above table.

>>i'm not too happy about the stealth. is an m1a1 actually harder to hit
than a 60-tonne tank from a less->>developed army?
>    I'm uncertain. The very few M1s that were hit by Iraqi T72's were
apparently undamaged. I don't know how >true this is, but Tom Clancy
that it took another M1 to penetrate the turret armour of a M1. Even
the tank had its turret replaced and was back in action very soon.
>    I regard stealth in DSII, not as a electronic stealth field, but as
more an efficiency factor to pack >more gear in a given volume.

Reports from the Gulf fighting make it clear that once a target was
spotted, it's size had little bearing on hit proabilities. The Iraqi's
second rate tanks with second rate crews, armed with second rate
ammunition. The US uparmoured most of it's tanks and had highly trained
crews with excellent sabot rounds:

		Turret armour			Round		       
		(vs AP/HEAT rounds)		Type
Iraq	T-55	200/200mm		100mm	BM-6 APDS	       
264mm@1000m, 237mm@2000m
Iraq	T-62	230/230mm		115mm	BR-5 APFSDS	       
300mm@1000m, 270mm@2000m
Iraq	T-72G	410/500mm		125mm	3BM-15 APFSDS		
Iraq	T-72M1 500/560mm		125mm	3BM-15 APFSDS		
USA	M60A3	250/250mm		105mm	M833 APFSDSDU	       
480mm@1000m, 440mm@2000m,
USA	M1	350/550mm		105mm	M900 APFSDSDU	       
560mm@1000m, 520mm@2000m, 480mm@3000m
USA	IPM1	500/710mm		105mm	M900 APFSDSDU	       
550mm@1000m, 520mm@2000m, 480mm@3000m
USA	M1A1	500/710mm		120mm	M829A1 APFSDSDU
710mm@1000m, 670mm@2000m,
USA	M1A1HA	600/1000mm		120mm	M829A1 APFSDSDU
710mm@1000m, 670mm@2000m,

Here's the latest combinations:

USA	M1A2	770/1300mm		120mm M829A2 APFSDSDU  
815mm@1000m, 780mm@2000m,
Russia	T-80UM	520/650mm		125mm 3BM-44 APFSDSDU  
Estimated 630mm@2000m (560mm
before 1998)
[Add 300mm v HEAT for 1st Generation ERA, add 300mm v AP/HEAT for
France	Leclerc720/1100mm		120mm OFL120E2 APFSDSDU
Estimated 640mm@1000m

The near future:
Nobody None	NA			140mm Unknown		       
This is the US/UK/French/German/Swiss/Swedish gun that has been
USA	M1A2SEP 770/1300mm		120mm M829A3		       

Once the T-72 was penetrated its ammo in the autoloader would cook off
throw the turret off. The crew would be killed (duh!). When the M1s were
penetrated the ammo would detonate and vent out the blow-out panels.
Compare the situation in Europe, 1985:

USA	M60A3	250/250mm		105mm M774 APFSDSDU	       
430mm@1000m, 390mm@2000m
USA	M1	350/700mm		105mm M774 APFSDSDU		
USA	IPM1	500/710mm		105mm M774 APFSDSDU 
[Still lots of M60A3s in service. No M1A1s till 1986. They have M829
640mm@1000m, 590mm@2000m. Also the 105mm M833 enters service in 1986,
Russia	T-64B	400/500mm	All with 125mm 3BM32 APFSDSDU  
Russia	T-72A	500/560mm
Russia T-72B  520/560mm
Russia	T-80B	500/560mm
Russia	T-80U1 520/650mm
[T-72B and T-80U1 entered service in 1985. All T-64B/80B had 1st Gen ERA
add 300mm v HEAT. The T-80UM1 had Kontakt-5 so add 300mm v AP and HEAT.]
Bottom line the 105mm was no good. The US faced T-80s in its sector.
German analyses of the area gave 50% of battles taking place under 500
metres, with only 10% over 2000 metres. Russian 125mm guns are accurate
to 1500 metres, which was considered fine for Europe. In the Gulf
took place at ranges of up to 4000 metres. Scenario designers take note.

Here's the efficiencies of APFSDS rounds:

DU				x1.1
Monocrystal Tungsten		x1.05 (1990s)
Tungsten			x0.9
Steel				x0.5-0.6

Regarding the Merkava as a troop carrier. This line of speculation
when the Merkava was demonstrated to other countries. Six fully equipped
infantryman de-bussed in front of the observers. As somebody else stated
the 105mm version normally has 62 rounds and the 120mm 50 rounds. The
hatch is described as a crew escape/ammunition loading/troop hatch. It
used to carry small groups of infantry in high risk areas.

Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army (1988, ISBN 0 7106 0352 5) David
All Steven J. Zaloga:
Tank War-Central Front. NATO v Warsaw Pact (1989, ISBN 0 85045 904 4)
M1 Abrams MBT 1982-1992 (1993, ISBN 185532 283 8) New Vanguard
T-72 MBT 1974-1993 (1993, ISBN 185532 338 9) New Vanguard
T-54, T-55, T-62 (1992, ISBN 962 361 913 8) Concord
T-64, T-80 (1992, ISBN 962 361 031 9) Concord
Various threads at the tankers net forum <>

Peter 'Still coming to grips with Dirtside:II' Grining

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