Re: GZG DS2 Mikko: Genres for DS2.

Mikko Kurki-Suonio <maxxon@swob.dna.fi> wrote:
>On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Andrew Martin wrote:
>> >"An alarm pinged to warn him that a laser rangefinder painted
>> >Deathdealer's armour. The gunnery computer was already rotating the
turret,
>> >while a pulsing red highlight arrowed the source: an anti-tank
missile
>> >launched twelve-hundred meters away..." - David Drake, Rolling Hot,
1989
>>     Notice the date? His older stories use wireguided missiles!
>Actually, the older *stories* don't use missiles at all.
    Read the interlude: "Supertanks". I quote:
	"Wire-guided missiles..."

>>In this later story, he's upgraded his missile technology!
>Doesn't matter. It's still the same Slammerverse. Maybe you should read
>all the stories before you draw conclusions. Anyway, the stories are
>*not* written in chronological order. I can, and will if needed, find a
>Drake quote to that effect.
>Consider the story "Standing Down", clearly storywise the last
"Slammers"
>story (before they turned into Frisian Defense Force for The Sharp
End),
>was written in 1979.
    That's right, the stories aren't written in chronological order. But
in
the stories and novels written later in the 1980's, David Drake changed
HS
technology!

>> But the way that the tank
>> is dealing with the missile is still the same, which is take out the
>> operator and the missile as the missile is launching, not as the
missile
>> is about to impact!
>I really hate to do this again, but did I make you actually read the
>passage in question? I didn't quote *all* of it, but I will if that's
the
>only way to get through to you.
    Yes I did read it. Here are the two paragraphs, please read them
carefully:
    "Successful protection for the supertanks went beyond armor and
speed.
Wire-guided missiles are still faster, and their shaped-charge warheads
can
burn holes in any practical thickness of any conceivable material - if
they
are allowed to hit. Reconnaissance satellites, computer fire control,
and
powerguns combined to claw missiles out of the air before they were
dangerous. The satellites spotted missile launchers, usually before they
fired and never later than the moment of ignition. Fire control
computers,
using data from the satellites, locked defensive weapons on the missiles
in
microseconds. And a single light-swift tribarrel could hose any missile
with
enough fire in its seconds of flight to disintegrate it."
    "Hand-launched, unguided rockets - buzzbombs - were another problem,
and
in some ways a more dangerous one despite their short range and small
bursting charges. Individual infantrymen fired them from such a short
range
that not even a computer had time enough to lay a gun on the little
rockets.
But even here there was an answer - beyond the impossible one of killing
every enemy before he came within 200 meters."
    See that the aim point for the tri-barrel is not the missile itself,
but
the launch point where the missile is accelerating out of the launcher.
The
satellites are spotting launchers, not missiles. The computer aims the
tri-barrel at the launcher which happens to be in line of sight as it
guides
the missile. The tribarrel is fired repeatedly, hosing the launch point
and
along the missile path. Thus killing or causing the crew to duck,
causing
the missile to self destruct. If the system is lucky, it might even hit
the
missile!
    A PDS system goes for the missile itself, not the launcher. Think of
the
US Navy Phalanx system, which uses radar to track incoming missiles and
it's
own shells. The control system guide the gun so the shells hit the
missile.
As can be seen from the above quote, the HS genre doesn't use or have
PDS or
ECM.

>I don't have my books with me, but if you had read it, you'd know
Birdie
>expected the "APFC" belt to stop the actual missile. Aiming at the
shooter
>had a purely punitive function.
>I will quote the rest of it if you really want to.
    Here is a similar quote, from the interlude, "Supertanks":
    "Many armoured vehicles were already fitted with a band of
anti-personnel directional mines just above the skirts. Radar detonated
the
mines when an object came within a set distance. Their blast of shrapnel
was
designed to stop infantry at close quarters. With only slight
modification,
the system could be adapted against buzzbombs. It was not perfect, since
the
pellets were far less destructive than powergun bolts, and the mines
could
not be used in close terrain which would itself set them off. Still,
buzzbombs were apt to be ill-aimed in the chaos of battle, and a tank's
armour could shrug off all but a direct hit by the small warheads."
    And from the story, "The Butcher's Bill":
    "Danny saw the brief flash as the rocket leaped from the shoulder of
the
other mercenary. It whirred over Two Star and the sergeant, exploded
cataclysmically against a spike of Starhome still rising on the other
side."
    From the point of view of Danny, he saw the buzzbomb moving and
could
track it with his eyes. Definitely subsonic. A few sentences further on,
and
Danny hoses the mercenary buzzbomb firer.
    In other stories, the APFC charges are turned on and stop buzz-bomb
attacks.

>>     Unfortunately, this laser beam rider missile system still doesn't
match
>> the capabilities of DSII GMS, which are high speed, fire and forget,
self
>> homing missiles.
>I could also dig up Birdie's death scene from the same story, where
he's
>done in by a quite self-homing artillery round -- but you'd just argue
it
>doesn't count as high speed so I give up.
    Self homing artillery rounds are another indication that David Drake
changed the HS technology in later stories. In "Hangman", the AP
artillery
rounds are bomblets that fire shrapnel, for example:
    "Pritchard could imagine the carnage among the unprotected calliope
crews when the shrapnel whirred through them."
    These artillery rounds are clearly unguided. In an earlier story,
the
artillery shells have height sensors that can cause them to explode
above
the ground instead of on impact. These are clearly conventional
artillery
shells.

>> missile system, but of two separate missile systems. This clearly
implies
>> that the guided system is slower, while the hypervelocity system is
faster
>> but not guided.
>So?
    The slow missile is clearly wireguided or laser designated. The fast
missile is unguided.

>>     Thanks for the quote! I was going to quote it back to you! It's
in
the
>> short story collection I also have. Where it ALSO speaks about wire
guided
>> missiles. You need to read it more carefully. The technique of firing
at
the
>> operator and the missile with main gun and MG is a technique
developed by
>> the Israelis in the Arab-Israeli conflicts and transferred to the
Americans.
>> David Drake has logically extended this technique to fire light speed
power
>> guns at the missile operator, so that the operator ducks and the
missile
>> misses.
>The guidance method, which I did note but chose to omit as irrelevant
as
>it is quite clearly indicated that it is the MISSILE that's being shot
>down, not the operator.
    It's quite clear from the quotes above that the aim point is the
launcher as it fires it's missile. Not the missile itself. As the tank
moves, the missile will turn and track it as directed by the launcher.
Therefore you need an active sensor, like radar, or an optical camera
system
to direct the antimissile fire. Clearly HS doesn't have this.
They only fire at the launcher.

>> >>	  HS combat cars were open topped because they were based on a
old
>> Soviet
>> >> apc which was open topped. I get the impression David Drake didn't
like
>> >> M113s!
>> >"Hammer's vehicles were designed around the M48s and [M113] ACAVs
I'd
>> >ridden..." - David Drake, Afterword to Counting the Cost, 1987
>>     That's right, but if you look closer in the stories, you will
find
that
>> the combat cars are completely open topped at the rear, which is not
quite
>> the case with the M113 and the M113 ACAV, which had hatches. David
Drake
has
>> extended it quite logically and completely open topped the rear of
the
>> combat cars.
>Let's see. You said: "HS combat cars were open topped because they were
>based on a old Soviet apc which was open topped." David Drake said:
>"Hammer's vehicles were designed around the M48s and [M113] ACAVs I'd
>ridden..."
>I wonder which of you is the better authority on the subject?
>Where do the words "soviet apc" appear in Drake's sentence? And, btw,
>which soviet APC would that be? M3 halftrack?
>Besides, I think the ACAV is open topped unlike most other M113
variants.
>And yes, I can dig that up too.
    Well, I've looked it up in my "The History of the Vietnam War". On
page
36, top right, is shown a picture of a M113 ACAV. It clearly shows three
soldiers in the rear sitting on top of the hatch to the rear of the M113
ACAV. The ACAV in question shows red "13" on a yellow triangle. This
quite
clearly shows that the M113 ACAV did have hatches as I said. The Soviet
APC's of the 1950's were open topped and also formed inspiration for the
combat cars. These APC's were the BTR-152 6×6 and the BTR-60P 8×8 (not
the
BTR-60PB, which is fully enclosed). The BTR-60P had triple machine guns
like
the M113 ACAV.

>> The driver has overhead protection, the soldiers don't!
>Actually, a roof over the fighting compartment is mentioned in Rolling
>Hot. Not very thick, though.
    As I said early, his technology changed through the stories and
novels.
I quote from the Hammer's Slammers story, "But Loyal to his Own".
    "There were six vehicles in the patrol, all but the second one open
combat cars. That was a command car, same chassis and ground-effect
curtain,
but enclosed, you see? Better commo gear and an air-conditioned
passenger
compartment. ..."
    And from "Under the Hammer":
    "The two men standing above the waist-high armour of the rear
compartment.."
    Therefore, NO roof in earlier stories! You say there was a roof in
"Rolling Hot". Therefore, David Drake changed his technology in later
novels!

>>     Yes, they used Nukes and chemicals against others but themselves
were
>> not capable of resisting it, which is what I meant to say.
>Communication tends to be easier if you actually say what you mean to
>say. I have no psychic ability to telepathically know what you meant.
    I'm sorry, please forgive me. At the time, I thought I was writing
clearly, but clearly I wasn't at that time.

>>     Three days neutralising it. No NBC protection equipment! Not that
they
>> needed it, of course, in that situation! In another story in the
short
story
>> collection, they detonate a gas shell in a alien lair and blow the
gas
>> deeper into it. None of the team put on protective clothing or closed
>> hatches.
>Do you really want me to dig up quotes about the helmet filter system?
    Please do. But these would be from the later stories where David
Drake
changed his technology! Read the story "Cultural Conflict" where I took
this
example from. Notice how, in the story, the soldiers move the gas
artillery
shell gingerly? No one has NBC protection!

>>     Also their Nuclear dampers, while not described that well,
obviously
>> weren't cheap. They were not used by plattoons of vehicles. They
seemed
to
>> be a large, expensive item of gear. In that same story, no nuclear
damper
>> was provided to the troops. Therefore, no nuclear protection.
Therefore,
as
>> whole, HS were not NBC capable just NBC armed.
>Obviously not cheap? Would you mind backing up your allegations with
some
>sort of reference?
    Read the story, "Cultural Conflict". The force was on a isolated
island
and the entire force composition is described as it's completely
destroyed
by the aliens.
    Read the interlude, "Table of Organization and Equipment, Hammer's
Slammers". Is there a nuclear damper mentioned? No.

>Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps the device has some sort of
range
>and you don't need to equip every individual tank with one?
    The suppression device is clearly area effect but only of a limited
area. No tank, combat car or command car was armed with one as far as I
could tell.

>Can you find a reference where a Slammer is cursing his lack of nuke
>protection, fearing the mushroom cloud?
    Firebase Bolo in "Cultural Conflict" where they fear what kind of
response the Federation might have when they fire off their artillery.
The
soldiers are scared they might be attacked with GEV tanks. The sergeant
worries about the kind of artillery response.
    Read the story, "The Butcher's Bill".
    "Danny was trembling worse than before the botched attack."
    Just after the tank platoon had destroyed five cargo planes, one
carrying fissionables. Clearly he was nervous.

>>     Yes, there were helicopters, but no planes that could fly NOE in
his
>> experience!
>But you said "NOE helicopters"...
    Not quite. The Helos in Vietnam and the Arab-Israeli conflict could
and
did fly NOE. Planes didn't at that time.

>>     Sorry, it's not shooting an incoming missile. It's shooting at
the
>> operator and the missile while it's starting to launch. It's a
logical
>> extension of the Israeli technique. Read further and see that the
computer
>> control is causing the tribarrel to fire at the satellite detected
launching
>> flash, NOT at the missile in full flight. This is significantly
easier to
>> do than to intercept a high speed, fire and forget, missile, just
before
it
>> impacts with your vehicle. The PDS system shoots down missiles as
they
are
>> about to impact NOT as they launch.
>We obviously don't share the same comprehension of written English.
    Well, you haven't been reading the old stories like I have.

>I give up. Maybe I should attend the Phil Barker Writing School for
>Dimwitted 8-year Olds or something...
    No, PLEASE don't do that! :-) I can't understand his one sentence
paragraphs with no examples! :-)
    By the way, insulting others isn't nice.

>Let's just agree our visions of the Slammerverse are not identical,
>which is anyway irrelevant to the original discussion.
    My points were right.
    Powerguns and GMS don't mix. No points value will ever make it
possible
to game with Powerguns and GMS in a "Bring 'n' Battle" game.
    Combat cars were open topped. Only command cars were enclosed and
airconditioned.
    The Hammer's Slammers genre doesn't have PDS or ECM and don't have
DSII
GMS.
    The Hammer's Slammers genre does have wireguided missile systems
and, in
later stories, has laser designated, beam riding missile systems. The HS
easily destroyed these systems by attacking the launcher as it fired.
Not
the missile in flight like a PDS does.
    The HS genre has DSII buzzbombs which can be defeated with DSII
APFCs.

Andrew Martin
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