Re: Non Violent Weapons

On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:40:28 +0200 (EET) Mikko Kurki-Suonio
<maxxon@swob.dna.fi> writes:
>On Sun, 8 Mar 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
>
>> I've been working on Non Violent weapons for peacekeeping ops, and 
>> I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in the real world with 
>> rubber or wax bullets. My supposition is that they have a 
>> significantly lower effective range (but what range is appropriate? 
>> ideas?) and that they can kill, even though as a rule they do less 
>> serious injuries. Any idea if these rounds use the same powder loads 
>
>> as normal rounds? 
>
>Well, for starters, "non-lethal" is just the PR name. In actuality, 
>they 
>are "less lethal". E.g. usually the doctrine for using rubber bullets 
>in 
>rifle-caliber weapons calls for shooting at the *ground* and having 
>the 
>richochets hit the rioters' *legs*. Aimed directly at torso or head, 
>they 
>are quite potentially lethal.
>
>I have some rubber shells for 12g shotgun -- upon trying these out, 
>they 
>went straight through a 1" pine plank (at 5 yards, but still).
> 
>I know wax is used in blanks and for indoor plinking, but I've never 
>heard of it in riot ammo.
>
>Auto-loading weapons would need a fairly hefty charge to work in 
>autoloaders -- the blank adapter isn't there just to stop the caps, it 
>
>also increases pressures to working levels.
>
>> The ruling I'm suggesting for this type of round is the use of a 
>> special NV wpn damage table which gives them a higher chance of 
>> wounding and lower chance of killing. I suggest a reduced impact die 
>
>> shift (two levels for wax, one for rubber) based on my assumption of 
>
>> a full powder load and the assumption that even a rubber bullet 
>> hitting an armoured Marine in the eyeball would be bad news. I also 
>> suggest a maximum range such as 1 band for wax and two bands for 
>> rubber. Thoughts anyone?
>
>Sounds pretty realistic. The range sucks, but within effective range 
>they 
>are potentially lethal.
>
>> wax/rubber bullets, beanbags (GL and shotgun), net grenades, stun 
>> grenades, CS/CN grenades, sonics, neural disrupters, tasers, stun 
>> guns (a la 9 Volt model currently available), Shock gloves, Riot 
>> armour and shields (w truncheons), slippy/sticky foam, firehose, 
>dart 
>> guns, tranq needlers, solidifying foam, and some defences against 
>> some of the above.
>
>The problem with any gas, neural disrupter etc. is that in a riot
>situation you're targeting a very large group of people. Even if only 
>1%
>of population is violently allergic to stumm gas, there are bound to 
>be a
>couple in any rioting mob -- and you want to avoid *any* casualties. 
>Civilians suffocating in their own vomit is bad press. 
>
>The problems are heightened by active mobs trampling the incapacitated
>guys -- for an ideal riot control weapon, you'd want something that 
>hurts
>but doesn't damage (sting a little and let 'em limp home on their own
>feet). 
>>

My uncle was stationed in Berlin at the time the Wall went up and was
telling me about the riot control procedures they had in place. One of
these were at least 4 helicopters that were equips with tear gas (CS
gas?) generators. Their job was to fly over a mob, communist marchers or
the like, turn on the generators and  have the down wash flood the
street
or square with gas. This would take only a few moments for any street or
square would be filled with gas. This was unlike all the TV riots where
you see the rioters throwing the little tear gas cans back at the
police.

Besides he told me the object was in that scenario to break a large mob
into several smaller mobs ( most people will flee the square filled with
gas into the nearest side street and if you gas the middle the edges
disperse into the nearest side street.) You keep doing this until the
groups are small enough to handle with regular police methods. 

If you are collecting non-violent weapons, I think you might want to add
this one to it. 

Tom Hughes

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