Re: [GZG] FTverse colinies

[Oerjan Ariander <orjan.ariander1@xxxxxxxxx>]

Someone (sorry, my computer can't display cyrillic letters) wrote:

>My idea is like that. In the late 17th century Sweden was a very 
>industrial developed country.

Um... no. It wasn't, unless you're talking a *very* alternative history to 
the one that actually happened. We were reasonably good at casting cannon 
(though we still bought or stole quite a lot of them) and we had imported 
several hundred foreign mining experts, but that's about it. We didn't 
really get industrialized until the late *19th* century.

>And it was a European great power, so it had to spend much resourses for 
>the navy. But it
>had only one million population, so, we can use Sweden as a model for an 
>industrial  developed but low populated colony. Well, Swedish navy of that 
>time consisted of 29-30 fighting ships.

Not a good analogy at all IMO, because Sweden was primarily a *land* power 
during the 17th century. The navy was basically only a transport and 
courier service for the army, and came a distant third after the army and 
the army - yes, I'm counting the army twice. So did the various kings of 
Sweden at the time.

It is no coincidence that Sweden only decisively defeated Denmark when the 
Belts (the straits between Sealand and the European  mainland) froze so the 
Swedish army could get to Copenhagen (on Sealand) without interference from 
the Danish navy. Our own navy could (mostly) keep the Danish fleet off the 
army's lines of communication, but it was far too weak to actually land an 
army on Sealand.

>Among them there were: 2 battleships, 7-8 frigates (at that time 
>frigate-class was an analog of cruiser-class in Tuffley verse), 20 others.

IMO it would be far more useful to look at the Swedish navies towards the 
end of the *18th* century, when we had *lost* our "great power" status 
(along with most of our overseas possesions, and thus the tariffs from the 
Baltic trade). Our population was a little bigger due to population growth 
in the homeland, but not much (still under 2 million), and we had *far* 
less money available - but the combined navies (high seas and archipelago) 
was rather more numerous than in the previous century!

For example, at the battle of Vyborg in 1790 (where most but not all of the 
Swedish warships were gathered), there were 20 ships of the line (or 
"battleships") and 12 frigates of the high seas navy, and *242* lighter 
units of the archipelago navy (gunboats and similar, suited for short-range 
coastal work - roughly corresponding to FT strikeboats and system defence 
units up to destroyer size).

Why was it that our navy was so puny when we were a "great power", but grew 
so numerous after we lost that status? Simple: while Sweden was at its 
peak, the only
*enemy* navy we had to worry about was the Danish one - and that one very 
rarely operated in the northern Baltic, since that was uncomfortably far 
from its bases. Poland and Russia didn't have any Baltic coasts (because we 
had taken them), and thus couldn't deploy any navies to threaten us. They 
were land powers, and thus we needed armies to keep them at bay - not navies.

Once Poland and particularly Russia regained their Baltic coastlines (and 
stripped us of our "great power" status in the process), the number of 
enemy navies we had to deal with proliferated, and the Russian navy in 
particular was sitting right at our doorstep... which meant that Sweden had 
to build up a much bigger navy for *defence* than it ever needed for 
*aggression*.

The strategic situation for the various Full Thrust powers is much closer 
to that of 18th-C Sweden, with several enemy navies to deal with and lots 
of coastline to protect, than of 17th-C Sweden (or Imperial Rome, for that 
matter) that controlled most or all of the coasts from which enemy navies 
could be launched.

Regards,

Oerjan
orjan.ariander1@xxxxxxxxx

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
-Hen3ry


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