Re: [GZG] Re: Points systems

Old time list person who hasn't played in a while but still carries
enough 
interest to stay subscribed for some reason.  People will likely
remember me 
as being a rather crazed fighter masser whose usual answer to people's 
complaints about too many fighters was "then bring more scatterguns!" 
:P

However, I have to say that I don't think you're listening a whole lot
to 
what people are saying.  They're not complaining about the basic idea
that 
victory points may vary depending on a scenario.  They're complaining
that 
VPs, under your suggestion, may be very arbitrarily assigned in ways
that 
may well bear very little upon any real military goal.	For instance, if
I 
were running a scenario like this, I might bring the Death Star together

with an itty bitty, highly mobile frigate with thrust 10.  I have 20 VPs
to 
assign... and just to be a snot, I'll assign 2 points to the Death Star
and 
18 points to the frigate.  Just for giggles, I'll throw in some PSB
about 
how Darth Vader's love child (conceived artificially) is aboard the
frigate 
for some unfathomable reason, and then I'll spend the entire battle
having 
the Death Star slog its way through your fleet while the frigate runs
for 
the outer solar system with enough speed that nothing has a prayer of 
catching it.  No matter what you do, I'm probably going to "win" even if
the 
Death Star gets owned for fun.

Regardless of whether you, as my opponent, know that you're supposed to 
chase down the frigate and not the Death Star, this scenario is
LUDICROUS. 
And yet it's perfectly reasonable under your system.  It's an extreme 
example, yes, but it's still one that you seem to almost encourage with
your 
suggestion that someone assign scads of points to a destroyer when
there's a 
SDN sitting around worth only one point.  I don't care what storyline or

simulation you're trying to run, that's just silly.

E

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "B Lin" <lin@rxkinetix.com>
To: <gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: [GZG] Re: Points systems

>I have already inserted the idea in my proposal that VP could be open
> information if the players agree to it before the game.  People seem
to
> be hung up over the idea that you don't know the exact value of an
> opposing ship and seem to expect to have 100% knowledge over every
> aspect of the game. (How real is that?)
>
> Again people are describing "tactical" aspects as being the only
> consideration for winning a game, whereas using VP I'm trying to
> introduce "Strategic" or "Campaign" factors into a tactical game in an
> abstract way.
>
> VP don't have to constrain your tactical thinking - if you have a
sound
> tactic that will eliminate all the opponent's ships, then that is one
> way to achieve victory.  If you are able through luck and deduction,
> able to win the game with a single shot, then that is another method
of
> victory. Just because a DN might be worth 1VP shouldn't PREVENT you
from
> shooting it, but the chance that a DD might be worth 10VP should cause
> you to CONSIDER shooting it. If we used 50% NPV as a criteria for
> winning a game, and killing a DD you bring your kill total over 50%
NPV,
> you're saying that you wouldn't shoot at it to win, because it's not
> "tactically sound", but would instead keep firing at the Battleship
> because it is more of a combat threat?
>
> ----
> In real-life you'd have flankers, early warning pickets, escorts for
the
> logistical train, units that don't show up on the board but are
> necessary for the operation of the fleet - but no one is going to
> allocate 25-50% of their fleet point value for such "non-tactical"
uses
> - they are going to bring every single point allowed to the board. 
You
> can say that the point values for fleets already include such
overhead,
> but then you bypass the whole question of logistical efficiency, fleet
> size and resources, and military intelligence that in real life can
have
> a huge impact on what arrives on the battlefield. By focusing solely
on
> the combat value of a tactical unit on the battlefield, you eliminate
a
> large variety of factors that really should impact how you play.
>
> Expendable munitions/equipment have been another key point of
> contention.  For instance, Fighters are considered to be under priced
> when purchased in large numbers.  If fighters were not as easily
> replaceable, or had a significant logistical cost (many more parts and
> technicians required) then they might not show up on the tactical
> battlefield in as large numbers or expended in suicide attacks so
> lightly. For instance if each fighter group were valued at 1VP, then
> massed attacks by fighters would be less worthwhile as they are no
> longer "cost-less" attacks.
>
> Your tactics should be influenced by larger considerations.  For
> instance a missile cruiser fleet that is a week away from re-supply
will
> expend it's missiles differently than a missile cruiser fleet within
> hours of a supply base.  Or a Carrier fleet may not expend all it's
> torpedo bombers on wiping out a cruiser fleet if it were on the way to
> attack an enemy base.  Tactically it doesn't make sense for an admiral
> not to use weapons that could destroy the opponent, UNLESS there was a
> larger strategic reason to retain those resources.  In the strategic
> view, the cruisers might win if they can destroy the torpedo bombers -
> either by destroying the carriers or luring the bombers to attack them
> to be destroyed by PDS. It may not make sense tactically, but could
have
> an impact on the overall war.
>
> Once again, if people who play one-off games are uninterested in
> modeling strategic effects, they have no reason to implement VP.  Just
> like there is a subset of players who ONLY play using published
designs,
> but Jon has provided an NPV system to allow others to create their own
> designs that are still compatible with the published ones. Just
because
> a subset uses only FB designs doesn't imply that EVERYONE has to play
> with just the FB designs.  VP are the same way, if players are
> interested in adding additional factors to determine who a winner is,
> they can choose to use the system or not as they please. At this point
I
> am more interested in designing a system that is simple and easy to
use
> but has enough influence to produce interesting games.
>
> --Binhan
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gzg-l-bounces+lin=rxkinetix.com@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
> [mailto:gzg-l-bounces+lin=rxkinetix.com@lists.csua.berkeley.edu] On
> Behalf Of Robert Makowsky
> Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 5:08 AM
> To: gzg-l@lists.csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject: RE: [GZG] Re: Points systems
>
> Binhan,
>
> Given that I understand your points about VPs being
> closed at the start but open as you kill off ships.
>
> And given that I understand that you are using VPs to
> simulate the effects of an economic, strategic, or
> logistic setup that is not being gamed,
>
> I agree that VPs can have merit.  The argument remains
> that random assignment (or assignment by player based
> on some sort of player desire) does not meet any
> criteria for any sort of game that simulates at all
> real world tactics.
>
> As John continues to point out, one side may not know
> that the heir to the monarchy is on one ship.  But
> they will know that DNs or Fleet Carriers are able to
> best project power.  They may not know that you value
> Cruisers more than DNs due to your far flung empire.
> But they do know that if they kill all your DNs that
> it will be much easier to then kill off all of your
> cruisers.  For their mission, your VP assignments do
> not matter.  The DD with the prince is going to live
> or not, the cruisers are going to get hit or not all
> based on their fire priority towards their primary
> objective (Kill your combat projection power).
>
> Now having said that.  VPs as you say can work to help
> make the game more fun and more exciting but they have
> to be assigned based on some sort of rational basis if
> you want the "simulationists"* to play the game.
>
> I think what keeps happening is that we keep
> explaining this, you keep countering with "But you
> don't understand".  I for one do understand your
> position but as a simulationist as well I reject
> random VPs or player assigned VPs that do not reflect
> some sort of actual likely situation.
>
> If the player was to assign higher VPs to Carriers
> than to DNs of the same NPV and say that was because
> it is easier for them to crew fighters than to crew
> DNs I would agree with that aspect.  I would not kill
> a DN and then be surprised at how little VP I got,
> kill a carrier and be happily surprised about how much
> VP they earned.  I would hope that my intel would tell
> me the relative values of the units so I can formulate
> my strategy before the tactical battle.
>
> Of course I may not know the values that your side
> puts on its units.  I would try to kill your major
> power projection units and may concentrate on your DNs
> while you are happy that your "more valuable" carriers
> are getting off lightly.  In this situation after I
> killed a unit I would not instantly know the VP of
> that unit.  I may kill all your DNs and then leave the
> battle.  I would have achieved my goals.
>
> v/r,
>
> Bob Makowsky
>
> *simulationist - gamer that tries to use games (even
> science fiction games) to model real-world or
> real-thinking creature events and actions.  For them
> the fun is seeing what happens when you game events
> given these rules.
>
> --- B Lin <lin@rxkinetix.com> wrote:
>
>> As other people have overlooked before - with the
>> hidden VP values for
>> ships includes the proviso that as ships are
>> destroyed, their VP value
>> is revealed so that you have a constant running
>> total of how many VP you
>> have earned.  Therefore as soon as you achieve
>> enough VP, the game is
>> over - you don't necessarily have to kill the entire
>> fleet to achieve
>> your total (unless the remaining 1 ship is of
>> sufficient VP to prevent
>> your goal).
>>
>> If ships hyper-out or escape, then a portion
>> (perhaps 1/2) of their VP
>> total would be earned by the opponent, again
>> revealed when they left the
>> board.
>>
>> If neither side reaches their VP goal, the game is a
>> draw, or if one
>> side has earned more VP, but less than their goal,
>> they can claim a
>> tactical victory.
>>
>> In general, by destroying 1-2 ships, you are
>> guaranteed of having enough
>> VP left in the pool to achieve a 50% goal, even if
>> all the remaining
>> ships leave the board.
>>
>> Again people keep making the point that VP will
>> cause strange,
>> non-tactically favorable maneuvers or formations.
>> But that is the point
>> of VP since most players don't use a campaign system
>> that provides
>> economic, political, morale, strategic intelligence
>> or logistical
>> factors into one-off games. (i.e. your last missile
>> armed BB may be more
>> valuable than your beam armed BB's because your
>> nation was going to
>> attack a starbase next and you needed the long-range
>> weapons to take it
>> out).
>>
>> By allowing a player to allocate VP, they are in
>> effect using an
>> abstract system to change the value of a ship to the
>> overall war effort
>> - i.e. the USS Indianapolis was just a cruiser, but
>> it happened to carry
>> the first atomic bomb.  The fact that the bomb was
>> cargo had zero impact
>> on its combat effectiveness or cost to build, but
>> the loss of that cargo
>> could have had a major impact on the length of WW2.
>>
>> Perhaps people who play one-off games really don't
>> want to have to think
>> about outside factors, in which case designing
>> scenarios or applying VP
>> isn't really relevant.
>>
>> The point of this thread was to get people to think
>> about scenarios,
>> scenario balance and how to increase interest in the
>> game.  I proposed
>> VP as a simple method (instead of having to write
>> out dozens of scenario
>> cards or designing full scenarios) that could be
>> implemented by anyone,
>> anywhere, that would provide a consistent system of
>> determining who won
>> a battle, from one-off games to full blown
>> campaigns.
>>
>> --Binhan
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> <<SNIP>>
>>
>> I find two issues with this type of thing, and to
>> some degree with a lot
>>
>> of non-FT games.
>>
>> First, let's look at your VP system as outlined
>> above.
>>
>> "details of which exact ships are worth what VP are
>> hidden"
>>
>> Ok fine.  But if this is the case, and all you have
>> to work with is a
>> "grand total" and "number of ships", how can you
>> POSSIBLY determine when
>>
>> you've achieved the goal of having killed more VPs
>> than your opponent?
>> You CANNOT know this until after the battle has
>> concluded.  And at that
>> point, it's more likely that either one side is
>> completely destroyed (in
>>
>> which case you HAVE to have achieved this goal) or
>> one side hypers out,
>> in
>> which case you have to determine the PV after the
>> battle has essentially
>>
>> been "won" by the side that stayed.
>>
>> While there have been lots of examples of objectives
>> (e.g., take out the
>>
>> carriers, get a fleet supply ship through, determine
>> the strength of the
>>
>> enemy fleet and get out with you lives, etc.), I
>> would caution to NEVER
>> NEVER NEVER (did I mention, never?) assign random
>> victory conditions
>> (e.g., each player gets some kind of VP token that
>> has to be held or
>> captured!) as it tends to make the game feel even
>> more artificial.
>>
>> That said, I think that Jon's card based minor plot
>> lines sound really
>> cool, and could be adpated to any game system. :)
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> John
>>
>> John K. Lerchey
>> Assistant Director for Incident Response
>> Information Security Office
>> Carnegie Mellon University
>>
>>
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