No one's a third rate power....

.... <man what a live grenade this discussion is!>

OO said:
Maybe not in 2183, but back in the 2050s they must've been pretty 
damn hot to conquer the Thais and Vietnamese... and being able to 
impose any kind of control on the various Burmese fractions isn't a 
small feat either :-/

[Tomb] One of the problems in canon history is determining what a 
brief statement really implies. Control of Thailand and Burma could 
mean as little as controlling (and even then only during the day) a 
few major cities. Or it might mean something more firm. We really 
don't know, any more than we know how cohesive the IF or PAU really 
are. So each of us is left to picture his own version. 

and OO said:
Er... not in social situations, certainly. In combat situations 
however, I'd phrase it the other way around - heck, an engineered bio-
construct may even have similar tank-for-tank capabilities as most 
human vehicles... and they certainly don't lack resources for 
training, since that's all they are able to do when they don't eat, 
breed or fight :-/

[Tomb] We don't know what they can or can't do until we see BDS. 
However, we can say this: At present, there is no hard evidence to 
suggest a tailored geneered organism focused on combat is actually 
much better at the job. (Because we haven't got any!). I think in 
speculating, we sell short some of the properties of generalization 
that make humans so adaptable and these do apply in the larger 
picture of combat between armies. Besides, I did say, for time #3, 
that rating Aliens is conjectural and problematic as they are (or 
should be) very different. 

KHR said:
If you take present-day forces as a rough guideline, I don't see why
LLAR should rate lower than African ones. Note also that LLAR troops
provide large numbers of mercenary forces, and would warrant 'Average
mercenary' status. My inclination would be to place LLAR as 3rd rate
and PAU as 4th

[Tomb] First, the LLAR is only a shadow of its glory-days self. It 
lost (in a BIG way) the war with the NAC. Those few LLAR that 
struggled offworld surely lost a lot in terms of resources, history, 
institutional knowledge, etc. And they have the almighty whomping of 
a defeat on their records with all the long term morale effects. And 
their economic base has been severely attrited. I think LLAR 
mercenaries are average-poor (with the occasional good unit). IMU.

[Tomb] And to address Beth's point about rating the PAU: To my mind, 
Africa today is a mess. They have tribal rivalries (hatreds) that 
have gone back a very long time. They have pandemics. They have 
resource depletion. They have corruption on an epic scale. They have 
foreign powers mucking around there. And this seems to be likely to 
continue. Even when they pull themselves together, I see them being 
still suffering from problems of corruption, tribal/national/regional 
prejudice, and resource shortages. That will contribute to limit the 
extent to which they can spend on their military for training, it 
will contribute to limit the efficacy and integration of forces, and 
it will limit the extent of their overall troop quality. Note, in 
rating them higher than the LLAR, I have shown that I do believe 
progress can be made. Given more time, I could even see them one day 
reaching second rate status. They show more promise as a supranation 
on the way up (with lots of problems, given) than the LLAR, a 
supranation no longer. IMU. 

KHR said:
Scanfed. Either raise the Scanfed to 2nd rate (my preference) or move
the Swiss down for the same reasons as the Scandinavians.

[Tomb] That might be a valid point. I'm basing my opinion of the 
Swiss on a older period and on a more romantized view of their 
historical (and I mean a while back....) capabilities. Probably not 
in line with today. You make a very good point. 

I personally feel TomBs reason for downgrading them are rather 
suspect. 

[Tomb] By way of thoughtful rebuttal: tthhhppppbbbbt. <raspberry>

Present-day Scandinavian nations have some pretty good equipment, a 
fair degree of peace-keeping experience - certainly more than the 
Swiss - and they certainly have enough wilderness for large scale 
exercises, more than the Swiss.

[Tomb] So you're telling me they'll make good traffic cops and hearts 
and minds types. War fighting and peace keeping are not the same. And 
as people have pointed out, there is a fair amount of obsolecing gear 
in the mix, and a fair shortage of funding, and some cultural issues 
which are impacting 
martial prowess. Also, if wilderness area for large scale excercises 
was a 
determining factor, Canada would rule the NAC! It's budget, 
economics, and to an increasing extent, popular culture and 
individual values thar tend to have impact.