Re: [SG] more ww2

On Mon, 2002-07-15 at 15:55, Ryan M Gill wrote:
> At 2:22 PM -0400 7/15/02, Flak Magnet wrote:
> >
> >I disagree.	My statement is accurate.  I did not state that FMJ
rounds
> >were somehow impervious to deformation.  I've seen them do exactly
that
> >(admittedly, not in flesh, lucky for me).  9mmNATO rounds DO punch
> >through unarmored personnel more than one would like.  Armor, (flak
> >vests, etc.) slow them down considerably, and are much more likely to
> >completely stop soft-point or hollow-point rounds.  9mmNATO is good
for
> >military use.  Less so for law-enforcement or home defense.
> 
> If most everyone in military situations is wearing BA, then how would 
> this round work in a PDW at all? Or any pistol round? That issue is 
> why PDW's are now being designed to penetrate personal armor. They 
> are however lacking in the ability to cause majorly traumatic wounds. 
> One benefit for another in trade really.

The context of my comments was in reference to the Secret Service, which
is not a traditionl military situation.  Thus the PDW is something I
agree with, but it wasn't something I had brought up.
 
> The most critical thing that should be stressed about any round in a 
> defensive situation is shot placement. A .22 LR will do far better in 
> the chest than a .44 in the thigh. 9mm rounds with a very expandable 
> hollow point bullet can crater on a target. Another bullet will over 
> penetrate given the same bullet, another bullet, different target 
> situation, etc. It all depends on how big the target is and what kind 
> of clothes they are wearing (heavy winter clothes with a hallow point 
> that gets it's cavity filled by the clothes and fails to expand, thus 
> over penetrating). A 9mm ball round isn't super good at dropping 
> someone in a hurry. Any smaller pistol sized round in FMJ is like 
> that. They aren't creating that much of a wound cavity. Hollow point 
> rounds are better because they increase the size of the wound cavity.
> 
> It's all shot placement.

You're preaching stridently to the choir on that one.  Not that I
mentioned "when trying to aim center-mass".  When considering what round
you want, you'll have to consider where you want to put it.  Center-mass
gets my vote... It's the biggest target, thus the easiest to hit.  I'll
leave the head-shots to people with the long-guns, sights and lots of
skill.
 
> >I'm not advocating that _all_ rounds should be subsonic or hollow
> >point.  I am saying that a 9mm FMJ round is a less-than-optimal round
> >for dropping someone (unarmored) FAST when trying to aim center-mass.
> >Less so when using such a "spray and pray" weapon like an UZI.
> 
> Open bolt SMGs have their application. Short bursts allow for 
> multiple rounds in a given zone vs a single round. Controlled use of 
> an SMG has its advantages.

No argument there.  But in the setting we're talking about (Secret
Service), select targets may need to be engaged within a crowd, and cost
is not really an obstacle as the number of people to be equipped with
SMGs is somewhat limited, I see MP5s and other SMG overtaking cheaper,
open-bolt, blow-back operated SMG's pretty handily.

+++SNIP+++
> 
> Sorry it looked like you were arguing about round deformation.

*Shrug*  I'll get over it.  See?  I already am!

> Personally, I like having 2 mags of 9mm Winchester Silvertips with 18 
> rounds in each mag. That's my normal carry setup. I don't expect to 
> run out, but if I do, I'm screwed big time. I've thought about .357 
> Sig, but unless I can get a gun with >10 magazine capacity, I'm 
> staying with what I have. That alone is why I don't like the .44 or 
> .45 setup guns. I prefer a double stacked 9mm to a single stack .45. 
> Simply because I have more rounds on tap and fewer mag changes for a 
> given session of shooting. Strangely, I'm the reverse when it comes 
> to long arms. My home defense rifle is a combination of 7.62 SLR/FN 
> Fal and a Mossberg 590 Marine (with the bayonet mount!) 12 Gauge with 
> a 20"bbl with #8 shot up the mag tube, 4 rounds of 2 3/4" slugs on 
> the speed feed, 2 more 3" slugs on the sling and 8rounds of 00 on the 
> sling.

Silvertips... those are the Black Talons that didn't get painted black,
aren't they?  *grin*  

All I can say it, now that I'm out of the service, I really wish I had
your gun collection.  Particularly now that you mentioned the fact that
your mossberg has bayonet lugs in a later message!  Whoohoo!  

-- 

--Flak Magnet
Hive Fleet Jaegernaught
http://www.geocities.com/flakmagnet72

"...why I'm so sympathetic to the monsters. The answer is simple.