RE: [semi-OT] black hawk down?

Greetings,

I am not sure this view is entirely correct.  There were mistakes made
but
the folks who went on this mission were not stupidly blundering into
trouble.  They knew where they were going and what could happen.  They
had
become overconfident due to previous ops where they were able to do a
"quick
in and out".  They felt that they could do this the same way.  The lack
of
concern over RPGs used on helos was an error and once the first Black
Hawk
had been shot down the situation went to hell.	Overall this a boil the
frog
problem*.  The situation escalated slowly enough that by the time the
Command elements realized the gravity of the situation the Rangers were
well
into it.

The NCOs did take a strong enough stance on PCC.  This is attributable
to
their previous experience.  Yes you should always take everything you
need.
However everything is heavy and some choices need to be made.  Did they
make
the correct ones in all instances?  No.  Did the Ranger NCOs drop the
ball
100%? Also no.

Lessons learned are good ones.	Though some of them were practiced
during
this op (Contingency for Helo going down, there was a helo with a CSAR
team
on board for an extraction.  Should there have been more?  Yes, and if
they
went back in there would have been).  Some lessons were not followed on
purpose - Alerting the QRF that an op was about to go on could easily
have
alerted the Somalis early to the op.  They controlled information at
their
airbase but could not control info at the 10th Mountain or with the UN
folks.	Early Intel of the raid could have resulted in a canceling of
the
meet thus negating a reason to go (No target).

Back to the movie version -  <G>

As a counter to Tomb's comments regarding the tension between the Ranger
leadership and the Delta Soldiers.  I thought that was shown in the
movie.
The Delta troops in garrison were totally ignoring the chickenshit rules
as
demonstrated in the scene with Cpt Steele dressing down a Delta troop
for
not having his weapon on safe.	The guy looks at him, crooks his finger
and
says "This is my safety".  Could they have done more of this?  In the
book
yes.  In the movie they had to decide what was worth showing.  To add
another scene demonstrating the tension what would you cut out?

FMAS:Sk -

A good FMA:Sk scenario would be the two Rangers left at the first
location.
Have them move through a mostly quiet city to reunite with their squad. 
Add
a couple of encounters with Somalis enroute to the sound of gunfire and
you
could have a tight gripping scenario.

Magic

* Boil a frog problem.	If you want to boil a frog (for what I have no
idea<G>) you cannot just boil up some water and throw a frog in, it will
jump right out.  You have to put to frog in a pan of cool water and then
put
it on the stove, slowly bring the heat up.  By the time the frog
realizes
that the water is too hot it is too late and it gets boiled.

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
[mailto:owner-gzg-l@lists.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU]On Behalf Of John Atkinson
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 8:21 PM
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [semi-OT] black hawk down?

--- Ryan M Gill <rmgill@mindspring.com> wrote:

> I agree, I'm suspecting it will be a hard movie to
> watch. Knowing the
> drama and carnage was stuff that really well
> happened and for once,
> Hollyweird isn't having to add a lot of drama to the
> plot (from what
> little I've heard of the movie).

The worst part was where the medic and an SSG were
working on a kid's severed artery.

> A major fubar of a mission that should have worked.

Bullshit--it's a goddamn miracle this CF didn't go
south on a prior mission.  Every time they left the
compound they went out the same route and did more or
less the same things.  They go into bandit country
KNOWING they were outnumbered, with minimal air
support and without coordinating a QRF to come get
them if things go south?  The Ranger NCOs dropped the
ball 100% on PCC/PCIs--for which a number of deaths
are directly attributable (ie: The guy who leaves the
back plate out of his RBA saying "I don't plan on
getting shot in the back by some skinny" and gets,
sure as shit, shot in the back by a skinny).  The
Rangers, as a matter of fact, acted more like Boy
Scouts on a camping trip than the highly professional
elite troops that they claim to be.  For God's sake,
they left two guys behind on the exfil!  Their company
commander flaked out and became a psychiatric casualty
halfway into the fight.  If it weren't for Delta
operators stiffening the Rangers and the initiative of
a handful of NCOs, this would have been a far worse
CF.

> The threat that
> RPG-7's cause to Helo's wasn't well recognized. Not
> having armour at
> hand to bull their way in was another problem. The
> fact that every
> mother's son that had an AK in the area decided to
> come over and take
> a pot shot also didn't help.

They knew they were inserting into Aideed's stronghold
and they knew that every adult male in Somalia carries
a weapon.  Even those who aren't fulltime fighters are
part of local neighborhood self defense militias.

Lessons Learned:

1)Do your damn PCC/PCIs.  Take freakin' water, NVGs,
and ALL YOUR BODY ARMOR.
2)Testosterone does NOT make you bulletproof (Rangers,
Airborne, Light Infantry take note).
3)Failing to coordinate with relief forces is lethal.
4)Failure to make contingency plans (ie, what happens
if a helicoptor goes down?) sets yourself up for
failure.
5)Failure to take your opponent seriously causes
mental shock and failure to think clearly on the part
of your leadership.
6)Armored vehicles are the only things that can
operate with impunity against large numbers of
hostiles.  Yes, they would be vulnerable to RPGs.  But
less so than goddamn HMMWVs!!

John

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