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Re: ADS--A Prayer to St Jon

From: agoodall@c...
Date: 28 Dec 2000 10:23:55 -0800
Subject: Re: ADS--A Prayer to St Jon

On Thu, 28 December 2000, "Chris DeBoe" wrote:

> I think the question we were discussing was, what do "the rules as
written"
> mean?  Once that's clarified, then we're in good shape.

I agree with the interpretation that you can only fire at ground targets
while 
the ADS is off.

Having read through the entire SG2 manual several times, I think I've
caught on
 to some of Jon's nuances of language.

Your interpretation is quite valid based on the words as written. The
tricky pa
rt are the emphasized words. They implication is that the two words are
connect
ed since they are both emphasized. In other words, they both have to be
true fo
r the sentence to be true.

I do see, though, how you can come by your interpretation, and this is
how rule
s arguments come about. That sentence is vague. A much better wording
would be,
 "ADS vehicles can fire at ground vehicles, but only if they do not have
their 
sensors active for defence use."

That's my interpretation, anyway. 

As to why this is the case, I believe it's probably to limit ADS to a
more real
istic role. It requires players to make a decision on how to use their
ADS the 
best. It's these kinds of decisions that give a game tension. It's one
of the r
easons I don't use simultaneous fire in FT. I like games that require me
to mak
e tough decisions, even if the decision works out against me but wasn't
"wrong"
.

Allan Goodall - agoodall@canada.com
__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: ADS--A Prayer to St Jon
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 13:54:15 -0500
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OK. I finally see what you are saying. To me the two sentences say
the same thing (otherwise there is no need to put in the qualifier
"if they do not currently have their sensors active for defense use").

It is like saying "You may turn on red if it is not posted otherwise" to

be different from "You may not turn on red if it is posted otherwise".

-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net	  
-----

> -----Original Message-----
> From: chubbybob [SMTP:bob@retemail.es]
> Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 1:23 PM
> To:	gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject:	Re: ADS--A Prayer to St Jon
> 
> Bell, Brian K  said
> 
> > Then you have to go with page 19:
> >
> > "ADS vehicles MAY fire at ground targets if they do NOT currently
> > have their sensors active for defense use." (emphasis from book)
> 
> Brian and Chris I think at this point we are all agreed..  HOWEVER
where
> we
> disagree is that one school take the converse of this to mean
> 
> ADS vehicles MAY NOT fire at ground targets if they DO currently
> > have their sensors active for defense use." (My emphasis)
> 
> The problems lie in what the rules don't say.. I personally like the
auto
> target and auto fire approach that means no manual control when in
> anti-air
> mode ..ie sensors on no ground fire..
> 
>      Bob deAngelis..
> 
> 
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 11:17:02 -0800
From: Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
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Subject: Gravitics was Re: Suggestions and Advice Solicited!
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Laserlight wrote:
> 
> > I meant how the ships were compromised for vector and cinematic and
> what
> > that means in design terms?  How does this compromise make them less
> > useful for the one and/or the other mode?
> 
>   High thrust and extra firing arcs are more useful in Cinematic than
> in Vector, because in Vector you can always turn to face your target
> and, unless you're close to your target, you can pretty much guarantee
> that you can point your F arc in the right direction.
>    I don't know that I'd say maneuver is less important in Vector but
> it isn't as sweeping--if your target makes an unexpected turn, in
> vector you'll be out of arc by a couple of MU.  In cinematic, your
> target may be on the other side of the map.
>   Fighters and missiles are easier to use in Vector, for the same
> reason.

In extention to what laserlight said:
With cinematic movement you'll hear a lot of reports on ships moving
14mu+ on a regular basis but in vector you'll rarely hear of ships
getting up to 14mu. The reason for this, as stated above, is that in
cinematic movement you can do sweeping turns and be halfway across the
board by a small change in course, in vector you can do this, momentum
tends to make manuvering a pain. This also changes the effectiveness of
area targeting weapons like missiles and fighters. They're much more
effective in vector then cinematic.

On a side note I've been toying with a "gavitic" movement system. It's a
combination of vector and cinematic. For those who play B5 Wars is like
the gravitic movment there on agile ships.

Basically it's this:
*Ships can rotate as in vector
*Ships can push as in vector (this includes retro pushes and "forward"
pushes but all with the 1mu limitation)
*To change course the ship must align it's bow with the direction of
travel before turning.
*To change velocity by more then 1mu the ship must be aligned with it's
vector, whether facing or facing away.

Jaime
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Glenn M Wilson wrote:
> No Fighters, no ADAF IIRC; only  PDA.  And only one or two on my
> cruisers, IIRC.  Not sure about the capital ships the kids had...
> >

You'll need more :)
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Glenn M Wilson wrote:
> 
> Well, I only have FT/2nd right now...

You should get FB1, or at least get ahold of the ship constuction rules.
There's a few changes between the two including an Area Defence Fire
Control instead of the FT2Ed Area Point Defence.

Jiame
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: Proto SG2 campaign system
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 21:22:30 +0100
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Bell, Brian K (Contractor) wrote:

>Light Artillery has a minimum of 24" (SG) and all other has a >mimimum
of 48" (SG). 

Hm.

I can see some types of mortars having a minimum range, but other types
of artillery - including many vehicle-mounted mortars, and IIRC some
types of "normal" mortars as well - are able to deliver direct fire as
well as indirect. The minimum ranges for direct fire is the safe arming
distance of the shell (to avoid having it blow up in the shooters'
faces) - 20-50 meters in real life, 2-5" in SG, and base-to-base
contact in DSII.

Later,

Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry
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Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:36:53 -0500
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Brian Bell <bkb@beol.net>
Subject: RE: ADS--A Prayer to St Jon
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At 2000.12.28 -0500 13:54, you wrote:
>OK. I finally see what you are saying. [snip]

Anyway, as Jon said, "Play the game not the rules". :-)

---
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net
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Message-ID: <000901c07130$2abd6cc0$9cc3893e@auser>
From: "bif smith" <bif@bifsmith.fsnet.co.uk>
To: "full thrust" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE-[FT] SML-AF
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 00:40:17 -0000
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john L raised these points, and I will try to answer these, and
hopefully
make some sense.

>Greetings,
>     The question that come to mind are;
>1) Are you adding another phase to the turn?
>   (i.E. The SLM-AF attack proir to fighter
>  secondary movement phase)
>2) Are you going to allow the SLM-AF to attack
>   during the 'after secondary fighter movement'
>   phase?
>3) Scatterguns are Kra'Vak weapons, the adoption
>   by human forces (under any other name) smells.
>   I suggest that the SUBMUNITION rules be used
>   instead.  (I.E. The SLM-AF does 2D6 as a
>   Submunition attack)
>4) The suggestion of a 12 unit range for the
>   SLM-AF is rather silly, because it infers
>   the firing ship will never exceed speed 12/16.
>   I think that maintaining the intergrity of
>   SLM launcher concept is more important that
>   trying to use the SLM in a ADAF function.
>5) It will become necessary to add another phase
> to the turn as the ammunition selection for
>   the SLM grows, The 'record next turns selected
>   round type'.

>Bye for now,
>John L.

1-No, I would use them in the fighter phase (not secondary phase), and
after
the fighters have moved (makers for SML-AF placed after fighters).

2-No, SML-AF dammage/kills taken immediatly.

3-The game mechanics for scatterguns have allready been worked out and
well
understood. Reusing them in this way is the easier than trying to make a
totally new game mechanic up for interception. PS- I thought that
sub-munitions cannot target fighters?

4-I chose 12 MU so that the ship can engauge and destroy the fighters
before
the fighters can engauge the ship it`s self. The ADFCon funtion comes
from
the fact that the AF missiles are targeting the fighters independently.
You
were saying that a ship using these couldn`t fly faster than speed
12/16. I
seem to remember someone saying the same thing about SML`s recently?

5-The rounds can be shown in the record sheets, the same way that
ER-SML`s
are now (but with a different symbol). The player has to decide if they
are
going to use the AF-SML, or the normal SML rounds, at the appropreate
time,
and hope they guess right, because they can only be used for one or the
other in a turn, not both in one turn.

BIF
 "yorkshire born,yorkshire bred,
 strong in arms, thick in head"

PS- I`m sure there`s something I forgot/overlooked, but I`ll reply when
someone points it out.

PPS-The thinking behind this is to allow the carbine (probably wrong
one)
bug CLM to be a useful (and the first time it`s used) fighter killer.

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