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RE: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions

From: "Dean Gundberg" <Dean.Gundberg@n...>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:57:58 -0600
Subject: RE: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions

> Dean's "Starship Combat News" pages (Dean, the URL please <g>) is IMO
a
> *much* better place for such announcements, though. You should all
> check it daily, or at the very least weekly <g>

Thanks for the plug Oerjan :-)	The URL is in my signature below.

I have thought of offering to post a brief weekly message of the latest
releases and news in the world of space games and minis but I don't want
to
get this list too off topic and would do it only if the list would like
it.

For example, some of the most recent news items are:
- Fat Messiah Games releases 'Hard Vacuum' a game of W.W.II pulp space
fighter combat (US vs. the Nazis)
- The Necron minis have been released for 'Battlefleet Gothic' in the
UK, US
to follow next month.
- Pre-orders are now being taken for the 'Starmada' Expansion Two
supplement.
- AOG has a special offer where you could get a Warlock mini to give as
a
Christmas gift.
- 'Red Chicken Rising' tactical space rules in the Generic Legions
universe
are now available online (the only known rules that begin with a shower
scene).
- 'Spacedock', the unreleased ship construction supplement for LUG's
late
Star Trek RPG is now available online.

If the list feels this type of info would be appropriate, I can do a
weekly
post of the latest news but it would be mainly non-GZG products and it
may
be a bit too far OT.

Dean Gundberg

Starship Combat News
The latest information on Space Games and Miniatures
http://star_ranger.homestead.com/
star_ranger@my-deja.com
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Subject: Noble Armada Metal ships and Star Ranger's site notice
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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***
I actually like the metal minis they put out though they do have a bit
more
flash than I'd like.  They are scuplted and cast by AOG and the
Dreadnoughts
have no bottom detail but otherwise I will have a fleet of Decados ships
painted someday.
***

Having finally seen completed models, I admit to finding them not
shabby.
My comment about 'disappointing' referred to my complaint earlier of
somewhat mangled/twisted in-box parts. Flash, likewise.

As far as getting painted, we all have piles of lead bought with best
intentions.  ;->=

For a news update to the list, I think you are wise to to show concern,
but
a reminder of your site is a Good Thing, and an inclusion of 'latest'
news
headlines would seem appropriate.

Adding one or two other 'reminded' URL's, say, GZG's FAQ's and/or the
Unofficial's, and such an update note would be VERY useful, I think.

Is this getting too much like work?

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 07:56:52 -0800
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: [FT] SML-AF Was Re: More weapon...
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>I will make some humble suggestions (ignore at will).

I TRY not to ignore suggestions (even though the poor misguided 
people who give them just don't realize just how right I am ;-)

>I would remove the prohibition against fighter secondary movement, but
>give the missiles a 12" secondary movement.

I actually thought of this and didn't include it on purpose. The 
question was one of balance. An SML salvo is 2 MASS, equal to 2 PDSs, 
which are reusable. If it's too easy for fighters to evade, then you 
may as well go with more PDSs. Of course, on the other hand, you need 
to make sure the SML-AF is not too overpowering either. As it stands, 
the SML-AF will generally kill 1.2 fighters from every full squadron 
in the area of effect.

My rationale: trading an offensive salvo for one that is only good 
against fighters is already a penalty and (in the way that I designed 
it) you only get a good payoff IF there are many fighters on the 
board AND those fighters are close together.

Keeping the secondary movement out of the equation makes things much 
more simple. Otherwise you'll just trade that SML-AF for endurance 
(and a couple fighters from one group).

As for the "friend or foe" problem, I was initially planning to say 
"all" targets, but decided against it. I'm actually still vacillating 
on this one, so please argue away (pro or con).

>Before anti-missile fire, roll to see how many missiles lock on target
>and which fighter group each missile targets if there are multiple
>groups. (Example 4 missiles lock on 3 on group A and 1 on group B)
>Fighter groups then may conduct anti-missile fire. Each missile
>that is locked on and survives anti-missile fire kills 1d6 fighters

As fighters only score kills on a 5 or 6, a full strength fighter 
group will kill an average of 2 missiles. This means that an average 
1.5 (1 or 2) missiles will penetrate. Having each missile roll a d6 
for kills seemed like an overkill to me. Too powerful.

Likewise rolling one die for the number of missiles and then 
distributing among available targets defeats the purpose of the 
weapon. It becomes VASTLY less effective for even two fighter groups, 
who with 4 kills will generally defeat the weapon.

>I would also suggest limiting the range of AFSMs to 12mu for the
>initial marker placement, but allowing them to fire AFTER initial
fighter
>movement. Also initial placement needs to be in the arcs covered
>by the launcher and may not be used if the launcher fires a Standard
>or ER Salvo.

I don't care for the 12 MU limitation. I wanted to keep everything, 
except the effect, the same as standard SMLs. In that spirit, I'd 
thought that the arc question would have been readily apparent. Of 
course you can only use the arc of the launcher AND of course that 
launcher can only fire one salvo a turn, regardless of what type of 
salvo it is. I guess I should have stated that explicitly.

Thanx for the comments!

Schoon
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:07:49 -0500
From: Indy <kochte@stsci.edu>
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
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"Jones, Tim" wrote:
> 
> >I've only ever seen funky snails, too (and have mind painted with
> >Amer Indian warpaint schemes).
> 
> Please describe or illustrate - sounds interesting

If I had the time I'd take a few pics of my bad paint jobs for you
and post 'em. Luckily for you (or me?) you won't have to be subjected
to my poor painting. ;-)

In any event, what I did was do an in-depth search for any American
Indian art/design/warpaint-type stuff (even though a lot of it isn't
real 'warpaint' schemes) and adapt those designs to the shells of my
Phalons (the shells are an off-tan and the Phalon bio-ships themselves
are a purple color). Designs like concentric diamonds of alternating
colors (usually two colors, such as black and red), stacked or parallel
lightning bolt-like jagged lines, concentric circles, stacked wavey
lines, etc. 

If that doesn't help, or you REALLY want to see pics, then I guess
you'll
have to give me time to dig things up and take some photos (and then
scan
them, post them, etc them  ;-)

Mk
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 11:36:47 -0500
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Paul Radford has some nice pictures of Phalon ships at
http://www.innotts.co.uk/~paulradford/ft/gallery-phc.html

-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org    
-----

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Indy [SMTP:kochte@stsci.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 11:08 AM
> To:	gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject:	Re: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
> 
> "Jones, Tim" wrote:
> > 
> > >I've only ever seen funky snails, too (and have mind painted with
> > >Amer Indian warpaint schemes).
> > 
> > Please describe or illustrate - sounds interesting
> 
> If I had the time I'd take a few pics of my bad paint jobs for you
> and post 'em. Luckily for you (or me?) you won't have to be subjected
> to my poor painting. ;-)
> 
> In any event, what I did was do an in-depth search for any American
> Indian art/design/warpaint-type stuff (even though a lot of it isn't
> real 'warpaint' schemes) and adapt those designs to the shells of my
> Phalons (the shells are an off-tan and the Phalon bio-ships themselves
> are a purple color). Designs like concentric diamonds of alternating
> colors (usually two colors, such as black and red), stacked or
parallel
> lightning bolt-like jagged lines, concentric circles, stacked wavey
> lines, etc. 
> 
> If that doesn't help, or you REALLY want to see pics, then I guess
you'll
> have to give me time to dig things up and take some photos (and then
scan
> them, post them, etc them  ;-)
> 
> Mk
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<html><head></head><body>Hello:<br>
<br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp; It has taken 7 years of bouncing from major to major to do
it, bu
t it's done.&nbsp; I've finally graduated from UWM!&nbsp; <br>
<br>
 &nbsp;&nbsp; Besides that fact that graduation means I've got to get a
(shudde
r) REAL
JOB,&nbsp; it also means that my much-neglected Internet service at UWM
will be
folding soon, taking the UFTWWWP with it.&nbsp; Right now, I'm in the
process
of packing up the files and shipping them off to my new WWW site.&nbsp;
I'm als
o
going to work on "restoring" (improving interface, updating links,
fixing
errors, etc.) the UFTWWWP.&nbsp; To help accomplish this task, I could
use some
help from the list.&nbsp; If there are any sites or files that I have
missed or
neglected, please let me know.&nbsp; If you can think of better ways
from me to
present the information on the page, please let me know.&nbsp; If you
are an at
tractive,
single female who's interested in a long-term relationship with a&nbsp;
mildly
corpulent, somewhat homely, gamer.... maybe that's too much to hope
for.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature">-- 
Later,
Mark A. Siefert

	"The human race divides itself politically into those who want
	people to be controlled and those who have no such desire"

				      --Robert A. Heinlein
				      "The Notebooks of Lazarus Long"

E-MAIL: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:siefertma@netzero.com"
>siefertma@netzero.com</a>   WWW: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http:/
/www.homegame.org/siefert">http://www.homegame.org/siefert</a>
=======================================================================<
/pre>
</body></html>

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From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:11 2000
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From: stiltman@teleport.com
Subject: Re: Weapons Concept Question
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 08:47:38 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <200012192137.WAA26058@d1o901.telia.com> from "Oerjan
Ohlson" at Dec 19, 2000 07:25:35 PM
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> Pat Connaughton wrote:
> > Hello, to all
 
> > I was chatting with a good friend yesterday and he mentioned
> > that he'd just read an Honor Harrington novel and wondered whether
> > FT had towed missile pods? 
 
> In FT the missiles can all be launched from the ship itself in a
single
> salvo - simply use SMRs and/or MTMs instead of SML/magazine
> combinations.

Yeah, this is about the closest thing that FT offers to HH "missile
pods";
you can increase your total "throw weight" (to use the HH term) for the
first
salvo tremendously at the compromise of long-term ammunition by
substituting
racks for launchers.  If you were to, for instance, throw half of your
missiles
as racks instead of launchers your first missile barrage would be about
half
again as large.

It's been a little while since I've tinkered with FT, so I don't recall
the
exact mass numbers involved.

> 'Course, you *can* design an engine-less, Fragile-hulled "ship"
> containing MTMs, SMRs or SML/mag comboes and carry them around on FTL
> tenders, but it doubts me an it be effective :-/

Yeah... there's no combination of engine-less "pods" and FTL tugs that
will
allow you to more efficiently throw missiles in deep space with non-FTL
towed
vessels than you would by just piling racks and launchers onto the
FTL-capable
ships under the FT rules.  In a long-term campaign game, you could
theoretically make it viable by having tugs haul pods around before the
battle and come up with some house rules to allow ships to tow them
under
non-FTL thrust, but in one-off games there's no way to do it more
efficiently
than just sticking the missiles on the regular warships.
-- 
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
 The Stilt Man		      stiltman@teleport.com
   http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
   < We are Microsoft Borg '98.  Lower your expectations and	>
   < surrender your money.  Antitrust law is irrelevant.	>
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From - Fri Dec 22 22:00:12 2000
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: New Conversion of Babylon 5 for FT
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:46:33 +0100
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Peter Mancini wrote:

>>Hm? Not sure if you mean 3-5 crew members or 3-5 crew stars on >>SSD
here.
> 
>Since I specify the crew markers in the structure, I mean the later. 
>Otherwise, what are we talking about, a 9mm pistol?

Some people have previously suggested that the G'Quan-class cruisers
had a total crew complement of 3 (because they hadn't seen any shots of
the rest of the crew), but I couldn't remember if you were one of them
:-/
 
>>I can name another well-known SF series (movies though, not TV)
>>where the biggest capital ships are called "destroyers"... and at
least
>>one SF author who uses the terms "battleship" and "cruiser" to >>mean
"short-ranged ship with endurance for a single battle only" and
>>"ship with endurance for long-distance patrol cruises" respectively
>>(which IIRC is closer to the original naval meanings of the words
>>than today's usage is) :-/
> 
>Battleship and Cruiser are relatively modern terms, with Cruiser
>being the older term.	Also, why would future navies be more likely to
>use original terms than more contemporary terms?

Why don't today's navies use the terminology of the Napoleonic War
fleets? A "frigate" today has very different tasks from what a
"frigate" had 200 years ago, or even 100 years ago. B5 is set some 260
years into the future. What makes you think that the naval terms will
stop changing their meaning today, when they have changed continously
for the past two centuries and more?
 
>>The same problem as the Shadow beam weapon, but we've >>swapped roles
<g> The problem is that real armour very rarely >>ablates at all :-(
> 
>It always abates in FT.

"Always" = "since FB1 was published". The KV armour in MT didn't
ablate, ever.

(Funny thing though - before MT was published people complained that
the KV armour was unrealistic, so they created house rules with armour
boxes; now that the FBx armour rules are in place they - yes, some of
them are the same people - argue that *this* is unrealistic and want to
go back to the MT-style armour...)

>In my version it must take checks.  You can punch holes in my armor
>and weaken it.  I could come up with a more complex verson 
>but I am concerned with game play.  It will take a few test games to
>try it out and see what the effect is.  Hopefully this weekend I will
have 
>completed some skirmishes and will report.

Please do. Remember to keep track of the die rolls though - I've played
far too many playtest battles where luck with the dice completely
overshadowed the things we wanted to test. Like my tendency to roll an
average damage of 1 per beam die whenever I use C-tuned Pulsers  rather
than the more usual 0.8 per beam die; or why not Indy's performance
when playtesting Kra'Vak (same to-hit rolls as P-torps - go figure...)
<g>

>>In the standard game the EMP MT missile and the Needle Beam >>clearly
ignore armour. K-guns, P-torps and other missiles might - >>but the way
you phrased the armour block rule - "They are meant to >>stop beam
weapons, missiles, kinetic weapons and the like" - >>strongly suggests
that you intend the armour blocks to give full >>protection against all
the normal FB armour-piercers.
> 
>P-Torps should definitely only be affected marginally as well as the
>EMP MT Missile and K-Guns.

Then you may want to re-word the PSB as well. K-guns are archetypal
high-velocity kinetic weapons, and the current PSB specifically says
that the armour blocks are meant to stop kinetic weapons.

>>See the comments about the Shadows vs Minbari above. In the >>show it
seems that the Minbari EW capabilities aren't as effective >>against
all enemies - so if you use screens to represent this effect, >>they'll
probably need level-2 or -3 screens against humans, but >>against
Shadows (who, according to Delenn, "never miss") their big >>war
cruisers
> 
>Note comments about Delenn above ("Religious Tart!" "Down in >Front!")
>
>Clearly they do miss, mostly White Stars but also Narns who are
>properly motivated.

Like when? The only such occasions I can recall at the moment have the
Narn ships supported by psykers of other races.

>Shadows are tough, but even the fricking Minbari beat them 1000 
>years ago so, 

The Minbari won the previous Shadow war only by being allied to the
Vorlons as well as just about every other minor race in existance at
the time, *and* by getting rather impressive material aid from the
future (the appearance of Babylon 4 was one of the decisive things in
that war)... pretty much the same situation as in the B5-era war.
If that makes the Shadows a "biker gang", it must be rather nastier
than the world-wide Hell's Angels and Bandidos baked into one unified
organisation :-/

>The real question is, at what point do I need to worry about this? 
>One could argue that most of the battles with the Shadows were >really
races to Get the Hell out of Dodge.  So perhaps they don't have >to be
modeled other than as scenario gimics (i.e. do such and such a >task in
X-turns or else the Shadow Cruiser shows up and shaves and >slivers
your ship.)

At least the early battles were like this. After a while it got less
one-sided :-/
 
>>>Sort of like the transition for
>>>the Assyrians from Chariots to Cavalry - they kept the Chariots
>>>around for 300 years out of conservatism.
>>
>>More likely because it took them a century or two to figure out how
>>to ride a horse and fight at the same time, instead of having every
>>other rider refrain from fighting in order to hold the other man's
horse
>>:-/
> 
>Actually they spent that prior to adopting them in 900BC as a military
>arm - 

If they had figured this out prior to 900BC, why didn't they stop
having one mounted horse-holder for each mounted fighter until around
750BC...?

>As my friend comments about the Omegas, "Ram Speed Mr. Sulu!"
>--Peter "Ok, which of youse called First Minbari Delenn a 'Religious
>Tart'?"

"[Only one human has fought the Minbari and survived]. He is behind me.
You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."

:-)

Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry
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From: "Oerjan Ohlson" <oerjan.ohlson@telia.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: FT-Bug designs
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 18:59:10 +0100
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Hm. Isn't it fun when the post people reply to arrives a day or two
after the replies... Some comments to Brendan Robertson's post are
included below, but most of it is replies to BIF:

>Let me check I`ve got this right-
> 
>Acid SD-Heavy close range firepower. Using pulsers limited to close
>range.

Yes.

>If they are a effective anti-fighter weapon, instead of using 2D6 >for
>intercepting fighters, say that heavy fighters get no bonus against
>these guns? Would these guns require use of F.Cons in anti-fighter
>role or not?

Pulsers don't need FCSs to fire in anti-fighter mode; they work exactly
like PDSs. Heavy fighters getting no bonus is less effective than an
extra die; though whether or not you want to add an extra die to the
Pulser's point-defence firepower (each such die increases the weapon's
cost by 1xMass) depends a bit on how many fighters and/or missiles you
plan to throw at it. 

Come to think of it, Plasma Guns can't shoot down Starfire missiles
(only fighters, against which they're very nasty), but OTOH the
Starfire point defences are rather better at hitting missiles than FT
PDS is... using the Pulsers as they are in FB2 (though restricting them
to C tuning) probably evens out fairly well, giving a reasonable
approximation against both fighters and missiles. I was thinking of the
anti-fighter capability only and forgot about anti-missile firepower
<sheepish grin>

>Archer SD-Pure heavy missile platform, designed to provide heavy >long
range firepower.

Yes. Outranging the beams on the Avalanche - IIRC your Archer design in
the FTSR has SM-ER rather than standard SMs, which is right on target.
(If it doesn't have SM-ER, it should <g>)

>Avalanche SD-Pure long range energy weapon platform. Cl.3 bat >equipt.

Yes.
 
>Auger SD-Require a heavy needle beam type weapon, but is slow >firing.
We can represent this by making the heavy needle beams >require more
mass. I know this would make the weapons more >vulnerable to damage, so
you could just have limited firecons, limiting >the number of beams
that can be fired at once.

OTOH few large weapons are easier to repair than many small ones :-/
Unless you want to keep track of which weapons fire each turn (which is
a pain in Starfire as well), few large weapons is the way to go. Less
book-keeping, too.

(Brendan's "cutter" weapon is IMO considerably nastier than even the
Republican advanced primary beam featured in the battle of Zapata in
"Insurrection".)

>Ambush BC-??? I realise this design will be slower than a normal BC,
>But faster than a SD (thrust-3?, 4?). 

Thrust rating half-way between Bug and Alliance SDNs.

>What weapon loadout would be reasonable?

Massive short-range missile batteries - normal-range SMs fit the bill.
No beams.

Also, since the Ambushes were actually scouts and survey units rather
than "real" warships (...it took the Allies quite some time to
realise this though!), they should also have a small "science lab" to
represent the survey instruments - effectively a small "cargo hold", 1
Mass or so in size. (These instruments didn't give any advantage in
tactical battles, which is why I don't classify them as Enhanced/
Superior sensors.)

>I remember from the book that the BC`s had some missile weapons, >but
a mixed general weapons loadout seams a better idea for these >vessels
than a specialised weapon load.

A mixed armament would be *better* (at least in FT), but the Bugs were
really hot on specialized weapon loads so it would also be very
*un-Buggy* as well. ('Course, some people say de-bugged is *always*
better... <g>). 

The Allies OTOH only used specialized designs for carriers and
long-range missile platforms; the shorter-range combattants all had
various mixed armaments.

>Antilope BC-A later design, introduced as a direct answer to the
>dunquirk BC`s (posted on FTSR). A heavy long ranged missile >loadout.

The Antelope class had slightly lighter armament than the
Dunkerque-class, but more point defence and armour. Same speed as the
Dunkerques (ie. a bit faster than the Allied SDNs, and quite a bit
faster than Bug heavies).

>Caterphact CLE-PDS ecort light cruiser.
>
>Carbine CLM-Missile light cruiser.

Yes and yes (though "Cataphract").

>Cleaver CLP-Plasma gun (a.la. acid sd) light cruiser
>
>Cannon CLL-Energy weapon light cruiser, same weapons as the >avalaunch
sd.

No, the Cannon was the plasma-armed one. The Cleaver had primary beams
(the short-ranged version rather than the long-ranged version used on
the Augers), so a multi-arc version of the FT needle beam would be
appropriate. I'm thinking of using the same Mass scheme for Needle
beams as for Pulsers (ie. 1-arc = 2 Mass, 3-arc = 3 Mass, 6-arc = 4
Mass), but I haven't had time to playtest it yet so can't comment on
its game balance.
 
>Barfly CH???-

CL. You're probably confusing them with the Terran Hun-class survey
crusiers, which were undersized CHs.

>Cloak capable cruiser, design to scout or recon/lay dormant until
>someone stumbles upon it. Known to carry missiles, most probably a
>mixed loadout like the ambush BC. 

The Barflies were effectively half-sized Ambush-class ships, yes. Light
missile armament, no beams, plus the cloak and science instruments. 

Side note: all the Bug BCs and SDNs (and some fleet auxiliaries) were
technically able to cloak, as were most of the Alliance ships, but
since Starfire cloaking systems are far less effective than Full Thrust
cloak once you reach combat ranges I wouldn't bother with cloak on
these other ships unless your gaming area covers half a star system or
so <g>

>PDS weak (easy meat for a fighter strike).

Yes.

>Guardian? CH-Very slow (thrust 1) defence ship, designed to be a
>mobile weapons platform instead of building/ save time before building
>defencive space stations.

2 types: Derringer (long-range missiles like the Archer SDN) and Danger
(plasma guns like the Acid).

>Bug capitol ship are slow and tough (except the antilope BC), while
>cruisers are fast and weak (expendable).

Most cruisers are quite slow as well - the light cruisers discussed
above are no faster than the Ambush-class BCs. The assault cruisers
("C" names) are extremely heavily armed though. The only really fast
Bug ships were the Antelopes and their consorts (see below), and some
suicide units which should feature quite a bit in the sequel to IDG.

>Bug Primary Beams (heavy needle beams)
>Mass=7  Cost=28  Arcs=5 (cannot fire through rear arc)
>Requires a dedicated firecon. Roll 1D6. At ranges to 12MU, causes 1
>DP on a 4 or 5, and on a 6 causes 2 DP and knocks out a system
>allocated before roling (including drives, same as two threshold
>checks, but half can be repaired with DCP).  At ranges 12 MU to >24MU,
causes 1 DP on a 5, and knocks out nominated system (half >drive, same
as a normal needle beam) and 1 DP on a 6. Use a >normal needle beam
symbol, but in a gun battery symbol showing
>firing arcs.

Hm. Looks rather complicated, particularly when you need to keep track
of how much of the engine you can and can't repair... I'd prefer a
simple "2 dice at range 0-12, 1 die at range 12-24", though I'm not
sure of Mass ratings. Brendan's suggested 5+2 per extra arc up to 3
feels a bit too high for wide arcs of fire, but I don't have any better
suggestion myself at the moment :-/

>These are the way I`m going to attempt to redesign my bug designs,
>but I require at least a hint [snip]

Done <g>

>I don`t think I`ve forgoten any ships, 

None that are explicitly mentioned in the novel, no. The two different
types of WP defence cruisers are IIRC only vaguely hinted at in the
novel; at least one of the two Antelope variants (Appian and Antler,
the datalink command and advanced fire control versions respectively)
is mentioned in one of Admiral Sommers' battles but never named. (It is
easiest to ignore these Antelope variants and just say that both
advanced FCS and command datalink is subsumed into the ships' normal FT
capabilities - trying to work Starfire-style advanced firecons into
Full Thrust is a *major* game balance pain, and datalinks aren't much
better :-( )

One last thing - as Brendan wrote, the Bugs historically used
commercial drives on most ships (all but the Antelopes, the Assault
Fleet (Cannon, Carbine etc) and the suicide units) rather than the
normal military drives. Commercial engines take up twice the size of
military engines giving the same thrust rating, but OTOH they are cheap
(Mass/2 rather than Mass*2). Since Allied units were the same physical
size as Bug units of the same type (SDN, BC, whatever), this meant that
the Bug ships had less weapons etc. than their Alliance counterparts.

This is only important if you use them in points-balanced battles
though - but that'd be about as far from the novel as you can get <g>

Later,

Oerjan Ohlson
oerjan.ohlson@telia.com

"Life is like a sewer.
  What you get out of it, depends on what you put into it."
- Hen3ry
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Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:43:54 -0800
From: Jaime Tiampo <fugu@spikyfishthing.com>
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [sg] Starter Group
References:
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"Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> If I decide to take the plunge and purchase some SG figures (enough
> for 2 sides), what combination of figures should I start with?
> 
> Thoughts and suggestions encouraged.

>From the looks of it you're going to go with the 25mm figs. Where I
really like the 25mm figs I'm of the group that thinks it plays better
at 15mm. You can get more stuff on the table and the scale looks a bit
better. I can give you my thoughts on forces for 15mm.

Since there isn't much choice in what you get with 15mm it's fairly easy
to figure out what to get :) Each package comes with 5 rifle men in 2
poses, a GMS/P, a SAW, and a command figure, so 8 in total. The power
armour has a SAW and 5 sundry rifle men, 6 in total. 

A decent starting force is 2 platoons. We've been finding larger battles
to more interesting but if you're just starting and have to buy both
forces 2 platoons aside work. I run 3 squads and a command squad as a
platoon, so you're looking at 8 squads a side. You can get away with
less but then you're getting more into the FMA SG scale and it doesn't
flow as well doing actions by the squad.

Jaime
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From: "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" <Brian.Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: [sg] Starter Group
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Yes, I was looking at 25mm.

I, too, like the size of 15mm. But I am in the 'states, and KR 
(geohex) does not carry the 15mm. Also, most of the people at 
the local game stores play 25+mm figures (mainly Games 
Workshops or L5R of which I play neither). And most alien 
fauna (read monsters) that I would be able to pick up would be 
25+mm.

I could send to the UK or Eureka for 15mm, but I am undecided
at this point.

I guess that I should establish a relationship with Eureka as I love
the idea of the 100 club/300 club. OU Gravboard scouts, anyone?

-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net	  
-----

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jaime Tiampo [SMTP:fugu@spikyfishthing.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2000 1:44 PM
> To:	gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject:	Re: [sg] Starter Group
> 
> "Bell, Brian K (Contractor)" wrote:
> > If I decide to take the plunge and purchase some SG figures (enough
> > for 2 sides), what combination of figures should I start with?
> > 
> > Thoughts and suggestions encouraged.
> 
> From the looks of it you're going to go with the 25mm figs. Where I
> really like the 25mm figs I'm of the group that thinks it plays better
> at 15mm. You can get more stuff on the table and the scale looks a bit
> better. I can give you my thoughts on forces for 15mm.
> 
> Since there isn't much choice in what you get with 15mm it's fairly
easy
> to figure out what to get :) Each package comes with 5 rifle men in 2
> poses, a GMS/P, a SAW, and a command figure, so 8 in total. The power
> armour has a SAW and 5 sundry rifle men, 6 in total. 
> 
> A decent starting force is 2 platoons. We've been finding larger
battles
> to more interesting but if you're just starting and have to buy both
> forces 2 platoons aside work. I run 3 squads and a command squad as a
> platoon, so you're looking at 8 squads a side. You can get away with
> less but then you're getting more into the FMA SG scale and it doesn't
> flow as well doing actions by the squad.
> 
> Jaime
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Subject: RE: Starfire, was Re: More weapon concept questions
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>- 'Red Chicken Rising' tactical space rules in the Generic Legions
universe
>are now available online (the only known rules that begin with a shower
>scene).

Hey, stop trying to re-introduce the Phalon thread.  We know what you
are up 
to!

Shower scene?  Egad!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
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Subject: RE: [FT]Fleet Book 2...
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:28:31 -0500
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Those are pretty.  Is the main weapon of the last one the "Phunn Gunn"?

Arrrrggggg! Stop, no, Phalon thread bad!  Don't send, don't send! Body 
Strong, Mind weak!!!
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From: "Flynn Richardson" <Flynn.Richardson@unilever.com>
Subject: re:[sg] Starter Group
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Brian,

I would suggest that you check out the 15mm line of figures... The
detail
is great and you get a whole squad at a time ( 8 normal or 6 power
armour)
I have been busy painting mine up (FSE and NSL) and others in the group
have the UNSMC guys. Hopefully over Christmas I will have my web page up
with pictures of the lot of them ( Mind you I am all self taught on the
programming side of things so it might take a bit longer than expected!)

Flynn Richardson
Powders Project Manager
Lever Rexona New Zealand

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