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Re: Am I a Republic revisionist? Re: Sci-Fi Crossover afteractionreport

From: David Brewer <david@b...>
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:36:19 +0000
Subject: Re: Am I a Republic revisionist? Re: Sci-Fi Crossover afteractionreport

Joseph Arnold wrote:
> 
> I think Brin's point was that in the first 3 films, the force was a
zen
> kinda thing and then in Ep. 1, young Anakin tests positive for Jedi.
It's
> not so much the PC-ness of it, but the fact that one has to be
genetically
> predisposed to be a lightsaber-wielding scion of galactic justice. 

I think this shows the low quality of Brin's penny-ante
nitpicking. Even in Star Wars it was pretty much clear that it was
Skywalker's paternity that predisposed him to be a hero. ("The
Force is strong in this one" is remarked, showing that he tests
Jedi-positive.)

This is pretty much a straight copy from King Arthur, with a
Merlin-like figure watching over the boy from a distance as he
grows up without his adoptive parents or himself knowing his
destiny, although I suppose in general Skywalker is more of a
grail-knight figure than a King Arthur. Of course, Joseph
Campbell, from whom Lucas pinched all his core ideas, was really
big on grail romances, as well as on virgin births, and so on. If
you've seen it all before, that's the whole point.

If any wargamer here hasn't seen Phantom Menace, you should... the
climax of the film involves four simultaneous battles all at
different scales: a mass battle, a skirmish, a duel and a
dogfight. Cracking stuff. And us Brits get spot such unlikely
talent as Celia Imrie (from Wood and Walters) and Derek Griffiths
(from Playschool)... and I think that pilot-guy may have been
Danny from Withnail and I.

Still, Ep. 2 is going to have to work hard in the
epic-sweeping-romance stakes to top Crouching Tiger, Hidden
Dragon, but this is getting way OT.

> There was
> a second article comparing Star Wars and Star Trek from a
soci-political
> standpoint, 
[...]

<troll>
Y'know, between Star Trek and the A-Team it's a wonder you didn't
all grow up to be Marxist Leninists...
</troll>

-- 
David Brewer

"It is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at every
dog that barks at you." - George Silver, gentleman, c.1600
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To: "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
Cc: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2 
In-reply-to: Message from "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu> 
     of "Wed, 06 Dec 2000 16:23:05 CST."
<NEBBKHOOCLECLODFJBHIMEFOCBAA.jdarnold@siu.edu> 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 17:43:46 -0600
From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
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In message <NEBBKHOOCLECLODFJBHIMEFOCBAA.jdarnold@siu.edu>, "Jay Arnold"
writes
:
> This of course begs the question why should a vehicle have half the
actions
> it had previously just because some crunchies get out/off? By the same
token

Of course, why should *any* detached element lose an action?

> why should a squad be limited in its actions because some tread heads
want
> to tag along? I think a sensible alternitive is to treat an
APC/IFV/CFV and
> the squad/section it carries as seperate entities from the get go. For
the

What about treating the APCs of a platoon as a single squad?  Too
restrictive?  I took a quick look through 
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/atdls.htm and didn't see anything-- maybe
somebody with more knowledge than me could answer?
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Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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***
Of course, why should *any* detached element lose an action?
***

Pardon the vac-head comment, but I thought that would indicate the loss
of
command control of split units. The unit doesn't actually lose
abilities,
or even capability, just it's unfair to have disperse groups working as
well together as if they were in close contact.

Not the case?

The_Beast

-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon

One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
From: "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
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I should point out that I meant this to mean BEFORE the infantry
dismount.
After, they would have seperate activations, per normal.

----------
>From: "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
>To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
>Subject: RE: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 4:23 PM
<snip>
 For the
> sake of simplicity, the squad's action is taken at the same time as
the IFV.
> This makes the most sense to me not only from a game play standpoint,
but
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In a message dated 12/6/00 5:40:28 PM Central Standard Time,
david@brewer.to 
writes:

> My grandfather knew people at Boscombe Down during WW2 that used
> early radar equipment to warm up their lunches, a sort of early
> 

Indeed. I grew up in El Paso, Texas near Fort Bliss (the Army Air
Defense 
School). Soldiers used microwaves all the time. And every year they had 
serious burn cases when individuals cooked a hand or arm, and almost
yearly 
fatalities when some stupid individual stepped into a microwave beam at
a 
range of 20 feet or less. Yes, they will drop down stone dead and
partially 
cooked.

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<HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT	SIZE=2>In a message dated
12/6/00 5:40:
28 PM Central Standard Time, david@brewer.to <BR>writes:
<BR>
<BR>
<BR><BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5
px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">My grandfather knew people at
Boscomb
e Down during WW2 that used
<BR>early radar equipment to warm up their lunches, a sort of early
<BR>microwave oven.</BLOCKQUOTE>
<BR>
<BR>Indeed. I grew up in El Paso, Texas near Fort Bliss (the Army Air
Defense <
BR>School). Soldiers used microwaves all the time. And every year they
had <BR>
serious burn cases when individuals cooked a hand or arm, and almost
yearly <BR
>fatalities when some stupid individual stepped into a microwave beam at
a <BR>
range of 20 feet or less. Yes, they will drop down stone dead and
partially <BR
>cooked.</FONT></HTML>

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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:32:06 -0600
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2 
From: "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
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As far as treating the IFV's of a platoon as a squad, I don't agree. The
IFV
provides direct fire support (and possibly anti-armor support as well)
to
the dismounts. If you were to lump the IFV's into a single unit, they
would
have to split fire anyway, causing the need to detach one or two of the
IFV's, etc. So basically you have the same problem as before, just with
a
different unit.
If you're working with much more than 4 vehicles per side, you should
probably be playing Dirtside, anyway. I've always found Stargrunt to be
at
it's most enjoyable when there about 2 platoons worth of troops with a
command element. Call it "Company minus."
Jay

----------
>From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
>To: "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 5:43 PM
>

> In message <NEBBKHOOCLECLODFJBHIMEFOCBAA.jdarnold@siu.edu>, "Jay
Arnold"
writes
> :
>> This of course begs the question why should a vehicle have half the
actions
>> it had previously just because some crunchies get out/off? By the
same token
>
> Of course, why should *any* detached element lose an action?
>
>> why should a squad be limited in its actions because some tread heads
want
>> to tag along? I think a sensible alternitive is to treat an
APC/IFV/CFV and
>> the squad/section it carries as seperate entities from the get go.
For the
>
> What about treating the APCs of a platoon as a single squad?	Too
> restrictive?	I took a quick look through
> http://www.adtdl.army.mil/atdls.htm and didn't see anything-- maybe
> somebody with more knowledge than me could answer?
> 
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:29:46 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
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References: <001801c05f64$01b23b40$c16d8490@homeii.vic.bigpond.net.au>
<NEBBKHOOCLECLODFJBHIMEFOCBAA.jdarnold@siu.edu>
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000 16:23:05 -0600, "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:

>I think a sensible alternitive is to treat an APC/IFV/CFV and
>the squad/section it carries as seperate entities from the get go. 

This IS actually in the rules. You have two choices: the vehicle can be
part
of the squad or it can be a separate element.

I've always made APCs separate squads. I give them a one or two person
crew
(usually). So, you can activate the vehicle and move it and fire it
separately. The squad inside can be activated separately, as well.

I've kept the rules fairly "pure" in this respect. As the rules are
written,
it's hard for a vehicle to drive along, dump the squad inside, and then
move
to nearby cover. The rules don't let another squad activate in the
middle of a
vehicle's movement. On the other hand, I don't find this really that big
a
deal in practice. A squad can move up to 6" from a vehicle when they
disgorge.
That's a full normal move distance. There are few times when I've wanted
to
disgorge infantry and then move their taxi more than 6" away. I can see
this,
though, as a house rule or a scenario specific rule.

Allan Goodall		       awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall

"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:36:03 -0500
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Subject: Re: Bridge Crew
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So who's running it at GZG IV?

Los

Jeremy Sadler wrote:

> > Last time I played it was at Cancon '98, where we gamed out the
Seabring
> > Picket destruction from Honor Harrington.  It was good fun.
>
> I played it YEARS ago at a Computer Swap Meet of all places, and
played a
> scenario where we were Kli - err, Xingons attacking a human convoy. We
came
> in fast cloaked, but the bigger of the two escorts detected us and
turned to
> meet. He came at us at high speed, and everyone was waiting for me to
blink
> and turn - which I didn't. Just put pedal to the metal. Of course what
they
> forgot that in this game it takes TIME for the ships to slow and turn
> around... the big ship went screaming past, then the GM realised his
error
> and started his turn. By the time he got the big escort heading the
right
> way again, I was taking apart the convoy.
>
> Of course, I made my mistake then and hung around for too long,
instead of
> hitting and running... so the big escort took me to pieces. :(
>
> Great game though, really captured the atmosphere, especially with 6
or so
> people manning the bridge (there was me, my first officer <grin> who
> actually knew the game, and 4 crew.).
>
> Anyone on this list, if you've got enough friends with PCs and network
> links, I suggest you try it out.
>
> JS
> Jeremy Sadler
> stargrunt.com webmaster
> http://www.stargrunt.com
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:37:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
From: "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
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> 
> This IS actually in the rules. 

Yeah, like we actually *read* the rules. Hah!
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:55:33 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:37:28 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:

>Yeah, like we actually *read* the rules. Hah!

*L* I did. In detail.

I decided earlier this year to make a "cheat sheet" of weird and arcane
rules.
What ended up happening was that I created an "Advanced Reference
Summary"
sheet. I was able to put ALL the rules on 5 sheets of paper (2 double
sided
pages, and one single sided page). I went through the rules rather
thoroughly
as I wanted to put page number references against all the rules. 

One of these days I should take the page number references, anyway, and
create
an index for SG2. I'm about halfway there as it is. 

Allan Goodall		       awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall

"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600
Subject: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
From: "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
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Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but they
are
just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for wargames (at
least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
overdue.

----------
>From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
>To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
>Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 7:55 PM
>

> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:37:28 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:
>
>>Yeah, like we actually *read* the rules. Hah!
>
> *L* I did. In detail.
>
> I decided earlier this year to make a "cheat sheet" of weird and
arcane rules
.
> What ended up happening was that I created an "Advanced Reference
Summary"
> sheet. I was able to put ALL the rules on 5 sheets of paper (2 double
sided
> pages, and one single sided page). I went through the rules rather
thoroughly
> as I wanted to put page number references against all the rules.
>
> One of these days I should take the page number references, anyway,
and creat
e
> an index for SG2. I'm about halfway there as it is.
>
>
> Allan Goodall 		 awg@sympatico.ca
> Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
>
> "Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
> toys into a living room full of drunken men, things
> always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 13:16:55 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
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G'day,

 >I would never do such a thing, Beth.
 >At least not until Friday after next.

So you're giving me a sporting chance to get Christmas in before they
find 
me? Very thoughtful, never let it be said you're less than a gentleman
;)

Cheers

Beth

------------------------------------------------------------------------
---- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Elizabeth Fulton
c/o CSIRO Division of Marine Research
GPO Box 1538
HOBART
TASMANIA 7001
AUSTRALIA
Phone (03) 6232 5018 International +61 3 6232 5018
Fax 03 6232 5053 International +61 3 6232 5053

email: beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:17:40 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:

>Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but they
are
>just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for wargames
(at
>least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
overdue.

Uh... no they're not. *L* 

First off, SG2 makes a sort of weird semblance of sense once you've used
it a
bit. The trick is that you REALLY have to pay attention to the section
headings at the very top of the pages.

Second, Jon can actually write in literate sentences. Try reading Phil
Barker's DBA or DBM rules sometime. Particularly the earlier editions.

Third, those boxes with the shortcuts to the rules are a good addition.
You
should see some of the old SPI rule books where they spent a couple of
paragraphs defining polyhedral dice!!! *shudder*

I guess what everyone's saying is that if I find myself in a masochistic
mood
soon, an index of SG2 would be... desired?

Allan Goodall		       awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall

"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:36:12 -0600
Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
From: "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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Touche. However I did have the caveat "that I've played." I've never
played
DB Anything, saw too much text in the rulebooks, and let's face it, who
wants to read all that :P. I guess my main complaint with the GZG books
is
they are a little bit hard to navigate. I do appreciate the little grey
boxes with the core rule nuggets, but it is sometimes hard to find the
exact
rule I need during a game. Admittedly, I don't play as often as some on
the
list, so the books aren't second nature to me. Plus, I haven't even
cracked
my book since getting back into college. Let's just say some of the
rules
seem to be placed wierdly (at least to me).
Jay

----------
>From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
>To: gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU
>Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 8:17 PM
>

> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:
>
>>Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but they
are
>>just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for wargames
(at
>>least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
overdue.
>
> Uh... no they're not. *L*
>
> First off, SG2 makes a sort of weird semblance of sense once you've
used it a
> bit. The trick is that you REALLY have to pay attention to the section
> headings at the very top of the pages.
>
> Second, Jon can actually write in literate sentences. Try reading Phil
> Barker's DBA or DBM rules sometime. Particularly the earlier editions.
>
> Third, those boxes with the shortcuts to the rules are a good
addition. You
> should see some of the old SPI rule books where they spent a couple of
> paragraphs defining polyhedral dice!!! *shudder*
>
> I guess what everyone's saying is that if I find myself in a
masochistic mood
> soon, an index of SG2 would be... desired?
>
>
> Allan Goodall 		 awg@sympatico.ca
> Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
>
> "Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
> toys into a living room full of drunken men, things
> always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:07 2000
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:45:29 -0600
Subject: Attack Jay Day was Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile
infantry
	 in SG2
From: "Jay Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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Dang, I knew that would lead to trouble. For the record, my Christian
name
is Joseph, but I go by Jay (have since changed my e-mail client's
preferfences). My mother and the government call me Joseph.

As far as rewriting DB Anything, any system that measures movement in
"paces" just has to be off. Wierd. Uncanny. Freakish.

In all seriousness, I was working on a con cheat sheet for DS2 that
explained chit pulling, opposed roles, etc. Got about halfway done
before I
realized I needed to get my grav tanks finished!

Good jabs at my expense by the way. Please see my previous notes
regarding
my feelings on the GZG books (great systems, a little hard to navigate)
and
the reasons for such (don't play as often as I'd like, too busy
conjugating
latin verbs, reading Aristophanes, etc.).
Jay

----------
>From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
>To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
>Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 11:25 PM
>

>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600, "Joseph Arnold"
> <jdarnold@siu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but
> they are
>> >just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for
> wargames (at
>> >least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
> overdue.
>
> Allan Goodall replies:
>> Uh... no they're not. *L*
>>
>> First off, SG2 makes a sort of weird semblance of sense once you've
> used it a
>> bit. The trick is that you REALLY have to pay attention to the
> section
>> headings at the very top of the pages.
>>
>> Second, Jon can actually write in literate sentences. Try reading
> Phil
>> Barker's DBA or DBM rules sometime. Particularly the earlier
> editions.
>
> I was about to say, "Joseph, before you do a SG2 index, how about
> rewrite DBM for me?"	:-)
> 
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:07 2000
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From: Michael Brown <mwbrown@veriomail.com>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Bridge Crew
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 19:01:41 -0800
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Best question today!

Something similar has been run at DunDraCon (San Ramon) and GameCon
(Oakland). 
 This group did it as a multi-media Star Trek game, though all systems
were 
manual.  They had the crew perform tasks in order to see how long it
took 
(Operation game for the Doctor, Alien Autopsy if the victim was non
human, or a
 
3d puzzle to repair the drive, etc).  A lot of fun, but a lot of work
for the 
group.

Michael Brown

-----Original Message-----
From:	Los
Sent:	Wednesday, December 06, 2000 5:36 PM
To:	gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject:	Re: Bridge Crew

So who's running it at GZG IV?

Los

Jeremy Sadler wrote:

> > Last time I played it was at Cancon '98, where we gamed out the
Seabring
> > Picket destruction from Honor Harrington.  It was good fun.
>
> I played it YEARS ago at a Computer Swap Meet of all places, and
played a
> scenario where we were Kli - err, Xingons attacking a human convoy. We
came
> in fast cloaked, but the bigger of the two escorts detected us and
turned to
> meet. He came at us at high speed, and everyone was waiting for me to
blink
> and turn - which I didn't. Just put pedal to the metal. Of course what
they
> forgot that in this game it takes TIME for the ships to slow and turn
> around... the big ship went screaming past, then the GM realised his
error
> and started his turn. By the time he got the big escort heading the
right
> way again, I was taking apart the convoy.
>
> Of course, I made my mistake then and hung around for too long,
instead of
> hitting and running... so the big escort took me to pieces. :(
>
> Great game though, really captured the atmosphere, especially with 6
or so
> people manning the bridge (there was me, my first officer <grin> who
> actually knew the game, and 4 crew.).
>
> Anyone on this list, if you've got enough friends with PCs and network
> links, I suggest you try it out.
>
> JS
> Jeremy Sadler
> stargrunt.com webmaster
> http://www.stargrunt.com
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:08 2000
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:13:02 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
Message-ID: <muvt2tsrvsp33s3ef0p4ufqf649b2ot4i4@4ax.com>
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:36:12 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:

>Let's just say some of the rules
>seem to be placed wierdly (at least to me).

Well, yeah, they are. Like the rule that says the wounding of a squad
leader
adds an additional suppression marker to the squad. It's not in combat
results, it's under the rules for replacing leaders WAY in the
beginning.

And I can recommend DBA. It's short and a lot of fun. I recommend
getting DBA
Online, the free computer game version, and playing that. You can move
to
miniatures afterwards. You'll find that at the core is a very easy game. 

Allan Goodall		       awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall

"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Dec 2000 22:13:02 EST."
	     <muvt2tsrvsp33s3ef0p4ufqf649b2ot4i4@4ax.com> 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:55:17 -0600
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In message <muvt2tsrvsp33s3ef0p4ufqf649b2ot4i4@4ax.com>, Allan Goodall
writes:
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:36:12 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:
> 
> >Let's just say some of the rules
> >seem to be placed wierdly (at least to me).
> 
> Well, yeah, they are. Like the rule that says the wounding of a
> squad leader adds an additional suppression marker to the
> squad. It's not in combat results, it's under the rules for
> replacing leaders WAY in the beginning.

Hah!  Played the game since it came out, first I've heard of that.

I think Allan mentioned it, but my original question (detaching
infantry from MICV/APC) is answered in plain English in the rules-- in
the Movement section, whereas I had been studiously reading the
Vehicle section.

(FYI: If it's a "MICV," it has its own crew and is its own unit; if
its an "APC," the squad either parks it or detaches drivers, and it is
just part of the squad.  Page 24, "Transport of Infantry.")
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From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:23:24 -0500
Organization: Haphazard at best.
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On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:55:17 -0600, Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org> wrote:

>Hah!  Played the game since it came out, first I've heard of that.

I don't have the exact reference right here, but check the rules for
replacing
a squad leader. It's there. I was surprised when I came across it. 

Allan Goodall		       awg@sympatico.ca
Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall

"Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
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From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <4.2.2.20001207092934.00a7ba20@pop.hba.marine.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 20:47:29 -0800
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> I'd love to obige but I'm a tad snowed under and I really don't want
to
> ruin Laserlight financially when he decideds to put a contract out
on me
> for not doing his first ;)

I would never do such a thing, Beth. At least not until Friday after
next.
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From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
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<4.2.2.20001207131501.00a7ee00@pop.hba.marine.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
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> G'day,
>
>  >I would never do such a thing, Beth.
>  >At least not until Friday after next.
>
> So you're giving me a sporting chance to get Christmas in before
they find
> me? Very thoughtful, never let it be said you're less than a
gentleman ;)
>
> Cheers
>
> Beth

Actually, I was thinking of it as "saving you that last minute rush of
Christmas shopping."
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<ohst2tcncr9sevck8svsekpvjt7e88pa4v@4ax.com>
Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 21:25:40 -0800
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> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600, "Joseph Arnold"
<jdarnold@siu.edu> wrote:
>
> >Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but
they are
> >just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for
wargames (at
> >least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
overdue.

Allan Goodall replies:
> Uh... no they're not. *L*
>
> First off, SG2 makes a sort of weird semblance of sense once you've
used it a
> bit. The trick is that you REALLY have to pay attention to the
section
> headings at the very top of the pages.
>
> Second, Jon can actually write in literate sentences. Try reading
Phil
> Barker's DBA or DBM rules sometime. Particularly the earlier
editions.

I was about to say, "Joseph, before you do a SG2 index, how about
rewrite DBM for me?"  :-)
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Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
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Oddly, 2 years ago I did the same sort of thing.  In my case I built a
table
matrix that had Small Arms and Heavy Weapons down one side and Infantry
vs.
Point Target/Vehicle across the top and a list of the procedures to flow
through.  It also had a section on Off Board Artillery and On Board
Artillery.

--Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
> I decided earlier this year to make a "cheat sheet" of weird and
arcane
rules.
> What ended up happening was that I created an "Advanced Reference
Summary"
> sheet. I was able to put ALL the rules on 5 sheets of paper (2 double
sided
> pages, and one single sided page). I went through the rules rather
thoroughly
> as I wanted to put page number references against all the rules.
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To: Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca>
Cc: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2 
In-reply-to: Message from Allan Goodall <awg@sympatico.ca> 
     of "Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:23:24 EST."
<v34u2tkjp0s98btl1jje39rc1ul94h87ug@4ax.com> 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:42:54 -0600
From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
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In message <v34u2tkjp0s98btl1jje39rc1ul94h87ug@4ax.com>, Allan Goodall
writes:
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 21:55:17 -0600, Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
wrote:
> 
> >Hah!  Played the game since it came out, first I've heard of that.
> 
> I don't have the exact reference right here, but check the rules for
> replacing a squad leader. It's there. I was surprised when I came
across
> it. 

No, "Hah!" as in surprise and amusement!
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From: "Claus Paludan" <cpaludan@worldonline.dk>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <B18DDC5F1158D311A66900805FD47181C89D0F@VSTASV1>
<001f01c05f62$75aa4260$0100a8c0@brodm1.vic.optushome.com.au>
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<p04320402b65459ee3413@[63.202.82.205]>
Subject: Re: Bridge Crew
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:45:46 +0100
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Thank you very much!!

/claus
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Bayan Schoonmaker" <s_schoon@pacbell.net>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Bridge Crew

> >Oh bad thing happended to me!! I Actually deleted the post where the
url
> >was! Would someone please post it again??
> >Sounds like a fun game!
> 
> http://home.mira.net/~jaguar/main.html
> 
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:11 2000
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From: "Jones, Tim" <tjones@adaptivebroadband.com>
To: "'gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: [FT] GZF - XML
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:03:21 -0000 
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>The GZF has been helpful from a design vantage point.	I think it would
be 
>a rather straightforward exercise to convert and update the GZF to an
XML
>version.  Parsing would be simplified immensely.

I came to the same conclusion but when raised on the computer list
got a negatory.

>Oops...  I mentioned parsing.	Time to move this to the computer list! 
>Has the computer list been archived like the GZG list?

No archive and I've been unsubbed (not any more) since I moved jobs 

I think we should be allowed a little public geek speak here as it is 
vaguely on topic ;-0

--
Tim
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From: Colin P <colin@imhotep.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: [FT] How to PBEM?
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On Wed, 6 Dec 2000, Greg Wong wrote:

> I've never played Full Thrust by e-mail.  What sort of rule
> modifications do you need to make for PBEM?  Moving the ships
> around using plotted moves seems easy enough, but how do
> you handle fighters and fire combat? Does someone have a website
> that lists these rule modifications?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --Greg
>

Check http://ftpbem.imhotep.org.uk/ for how I've handled it.

-- 
Colin P (colinp@imhotep.org.uk)
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 10:16:26 +0100
From: Frits Kuijlman <frits@pds.twi.tudelft.nl>
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [FT] Unofficial Official Lists?
Message-ID: <20001207101626.A12037@pds.twi.tudelft.nl>
References: <20001206221945.24597.qmail@web4602.mail.yahoo.com>
<001301c05fd5$7e9fd290$1e0aa8c0@hqmknt04enu>
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LASERLIGHT@QUIXNET.NET on Wed, Dec 06, 2000 at 05:40:11PM -0500
Organization: Delft University of Technology
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Chris DeBoe wrote:
> Mine was based on an extrapolation (and hand-waving) of the current
> aggregate economies, but this is useful as well.  Of course, you could
just
> say that the OU is a 4th Rate and the NAC is a Major, but I don't
think I'd
> want to.  Particularly since those OU commandoes show up in the most
> inconvenient places.
And if you don't encounter their commandos you have to dodge the buoys
they
leave all over the place:-)
-- 
Frits Kuijlman			   F.Kuijlman@{its,cs,twi}.tudelft.nl
Delft University of Technology			      The Netherlands
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From: "Alan and Carmel Brain" <aebrain@dynamite.com.au>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
References: <20001129195105.28051.cpmta@c008.sfo.cp.net>
<3A2C222B.ABB975C8@brewer.to> <3A2D868C.1B256632@sympatico.ca>
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<004301c05f62$e743fc40$0100a8c0@brodm1.vic.optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:34:00 +1100
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From: "Jeremy Sadler" <webmaster@stargrunt.com>
Subject: Re: Uplift FT (was Re: Am I a Republic revisionist?)

> There are a couple of seemingly Uplift "inspired" minis on the 100
Club
> listing at Eureka... http://www.eurekamin.com.au
> 
> (I saw one "dolphin in walking harness")

That was mine. Also useful for OUDF..
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References: <200012052226.eB5MQFX08486@tuttle.kansas.net>
<3.0.6.32.20001206025909.00862540@eagle.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: New firearms technology
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:35:31 +1100
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From: "Brian Thomas" <bthom37@eagle.cc.ukans.edu>
> My father is in the Navy, and one of his Marine friends favorite
stories
> was how they used to use the target-illumination radar from a HAWK
battery
> to cook birds in flight.  Marines.  What can you say?

...that the SPG-55 in CW mode on the back of a DDG works a treat for
this
too. In fact, Swabbies do this more often than Jarheads.
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<6B3C0EEAB4FED3119F5F009027DC5E9EA9AD0C@spacemsg3.jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 22:46:35 +1100
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From: "Izenberg, Noam" <Noam.Izenberg@jhuapl.edu>
Subject: RE: [FT] Salvo Missile (and Fighter) Range

> > Perhaps it should be:
> > Course Divergence between salvo and target (in clock
> > facings; determines Attack Velocity):
> > 0-2 Subtract target velocity from salvo velocity
> > 3-4 Use only salvo velocity
> > 5-6 Add both target and salvo velocities
>
> I think this works well. My way might be better for cinematic, since
you
can
> determine it just by looking at the figures, but this may do better
for
> vector.

I've thought of one way to limit Salvo Missiles while still retaining
the
launching ship's velocity:

Use the old Fletcher Pratt System.

In this case, you don't place markers where the SRs are targetted, you
place "firing arrows" with written distances on.

Do this before movement, then move the ship, then place the SM.
Unless someone is *very* good at estimating where ownship will be
relative
to the opposition, higher speeds/ranges give greater inaccuracy.

Just a thought.
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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 11:52:30 +0000
From: Tony Francis <tony.francis@kuju.com>
Organization: Kuju Entertainment
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devans@uneb.edu wrote:
> 
> >Hello Everybody
> 
> Hi, Karl.
> 
> >For those looking for inspiration for painting minis, especially
> >soldiers:
> 
> >http://www.tridentmilitary.com/WorldCamouflage.htm

Is this site live at the moment ? It times out when I try.

-----------------------------
Tony Francis
Senior Software Engineer
Kuju Entertainment
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:15 2000
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Subject: Re: The GZG Digest V2 #217
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 12:10:45 +0000
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No, radar was not originally designed as a "DEATH RAY". 
Its original design is much as it is used today. To 
locate and track ships and planes.

The first use and discovery was during WWI. When a UK 
Admiral; I can not remember his name, found a fluctuation 
in the ship to shore radios. He theroized that it was 
Naval ship formations that caused this distortion in the 
radio waves. Short thereafter the theory was proved, and 
they used multiple radios to triangulate German ship 
locations. This technique was used very effectivly.

Earl Hansen

The GZG Digest	     Wednesday, December 6 2000       
Volume 02 : Number 217
 
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 23:18:44 +0000
From: David Brewer <david@brewer.to>
Subject: Re: New firearms technology

>My father is in the Navy, and one of his Marine friends 
favorite stories
>was how they used to use the target-illumination radar 
from a HAWK battery
> to cook birds in flight.  Marines.  What can you say?

The original concept of radar was to produce a death-ray 
capable
of cooking pilots inside their aircraft. This was dropped 
soon
enough when it became clear that the amount of energy 
needed to do
this at any range was huge, but some bright spark twigged 
that
there'd be a reflection that could be used for detection 
and
ranging.

My grandfather knew people at Boscombe Down during WW2 
that used
early radar equipment to warm up their lunches, a sort of 
early
microwave oven.

- -- 
David Brewer

"It is foolishness and endless trouble to cast a stone at 
every
dog that barks at you." - George Silver, gentleman, 
c.1600

-----------------------------
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Subject: Re: Attack Jay Day was Re: rules cheat sheet
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Mike.Elliott@bull.co.uk
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 12:14:50 +0000
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Actually, the idea of measuring distances in paces makes a lot	of
sense.
Over the centuries, mankind have used a vast number of differmet methods
to
measure distance. In the 19th century there were about as many different
distances known as a "league" as they were European countries!

The thinking goes like this - what unit of measurement has stayed more
or
less constant throughout history ? Answer the human pace, generally
reckoned to be about 30" (2.5 feet).

Well it makes sense to me......

Mike Elliott

Dang, I knew that would lead to trouble. For the record, my Christian
name
is Joseph, but I go by Jay (have since changed my e-mail client's
preferfences). My mother and the government call me Joseph.

As far as rewriting DB Anything, any system that measures movement in
"paces" just has to be off. Wierd. Uncanny. Freakish.

In all seriousness, I was working on a con cheat sheet for DS2 that
explained chit pulling, opposed roles, etc. Got about halfway done
before I
realized I needed to get my grav tanks finished!

Good jabs at my expense by the way. Please see my previous notes
regarding
my feelings on the GZG books (great systems, a little hard to navigate)
and
the reasons for such (don't play as often as I'd like, too busy
conjugating
latin verbs, reading Aristophanes, etc.).
Jay

----------
>From: "Laserlight" <laserlight@quixnet.net>
>To: <gzg-l@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU>
>Subject: Re: rules cheat sheet was Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
>Date: Wed, Dec 6, 2000, 11:25 PM
>

>> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 20:00:50 -0600, "Joseph Arnold"
> <jdarnold@siu.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >Praise be to Jah! Don't get me wrong, I love the GZG systems, but
> they are
>> >just about the most user-unfriendly rulebooks ever made for
> wargames (at
>> >least for games I've played). A useful index/concordance is long
> overdue.
>
> Allan Goodall replies:
>> Uh... no they're not. *L*
>>
>> First off, SG2 makes a sort of weird semblance of sense once you've
> used it a
>> bit. The trick is that you REALLY have to pay attention to the
> section
>> headings at the very top of the pages.
>>
>> Second, Jon can actually write in literate sentences. Try reading
> Phil
>> Barker's DBA or DBM rules sometime. Particularly the earlier
> editions.
>
> I was about to say, "Joseph, before you do a SG2 index, how about
> rewrite DBM for me?"	:-)
>

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From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:13 2000
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Subject: Re: Cammo Web Site
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>----- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -----
>Absender: tony.francis@kuju.com
> devans@uneb.edu wrote:
> > 
> > >Hello Everybody
> > 
> > Hi, Karl.
> > 
> > >For those looking for inspiration for painting minis, especially
> > >soldiers:
> > 
> > >http://www.tridentmilitary.com/WorldCamouflage.htm
> 
> Is this site live at the moment ? It times out when I try.
> 
> -----------------------------
> Tony Francis
> Senior Software Engineer
> Kuju Entertainment

Worked for me right now. Or try their main site:
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/index.html

Greetings
Karl Heinz
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Subject: Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
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Allan Goodall wrote:

> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:37:28 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
wrote:
> 
>> Yeah, like we actually *read* the rules. Hah!
> 
> *L* I did. In detail.
> 
> I decided earlier this year to make a "cheat sheet" of weird and
arcane rules
.
> What ended up happening was that I created an "Advanced Reference
Summary"
> sheet. I was able to put ALL the rules on 5 sheets of paper (2 double
sided
> pages, and one single sided page). I went through the rules rather
thoroughly
> as I wanted to put page number references against all the rules. 

I have dones something similar for Dirtside. I ran off a 5 pages 
single-sided and we place them on a bulletin board we keep handy to the 
battle as a quick reference. I did not put number or page references 
against them though, that is a great idea.

-- 
The Middle Ages were a great time to be alive,
because if you weren't wiped out by the Plague
or impaled by some marauding barbarian, then yippee.
      "chocolate covered musings"
      (http://www.amused.com/nick.html)
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Date: 07 Dec 2000 12:23 GMT
From: KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de
Subject: [OT] Versace Cammo
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Cc: talkingwargames@egroups.com
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Hello everybody

I know camouflage clothing is fashionable in some circles, but this...

Seen today in a Versace boutique:

The ideal gift for the fashion-conscious commando or the lady with an 
attitude.

A slim-cut knee-length coat made from small pieces of fine furs, dyed 
various shades of green and tastefully sewn into a woodland camouflage 
pattern.

Asking price: 35.000 DM (about 15.000 US$)

How fancy can you get ?

Greetings
Karl Heinz
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:14 2000
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From: "Bell, Brian K" <Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>,
	"Ftgzg-Computer (E-mail)"
<ftgzg-computer@wraith.cs.colorado.edu>
Subject: RE: [FT] GZF - XML [x-list]
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:36:54 -0500 
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I have been toying with the idea of trying to implement 
an XML standard (for use within FTSR), but have not 
delved into it too much.

As I am not an expert on XML, I would appreciate additional
participants.

I see 6 levels to the DTD:
Game	    (Cygnus Fleet Testing Exercise)
Fleet	    (5th PAU Avengers)
Ship	    (PNS Zulu)
Ship Type   (Voi SDN)
System	    (Beam #7)
SystemType  (Beam, Class 1) [This could be static in its
  own DTD)

Contained within each section would be:
Game	    
  Name
  Sides     (includes neutral for non-controled elemets)
  Players   (associated with sides)
  Fleets    (associated with players)
  Game Area
  Game Map
Fleet	    
  Fleet Name
  Ships
Ship	    
  Ship Name
  Ship Type
  Position
  Course
  Damage
  SystemStatus
    System
    System Damage
    System Charge
Ship Type   (Voi SDN)
  Mass
  Cost
  Cost w/fighters
  Hull
  Armor
  Armor[row]
  Damage[row] (indicates damage boxes in row and Crew)
  Crew
  Streamlining
  FTL (None, Std, Tug)
  Tug Capacity
  MD
  Systems
System
  SystemID (Unique # for ShipType) 
  SystemType
  Class
  Arcs
  Bay (if has bay, magazine, etc. matches SystemID for bay)
  Capacity (if bay, magazine, etc.)
SystemType  (Beam, Class 1)
  SystemName
  Range
    Min
    RangeBand
    NumRangeBands
    ToHitMod (how to-hit is modified by range)
    AreaOfEffect
      Shape (Column, Disk)
      Width
      Length
  Damage
    Beam (1d6; 4,5=1; 6=2+reroll)
    (how damage is figured)
    ScreenEffect
    ArmorEffect
  SystemMass (2^(class-1))
  ArcGroup (6,3,2,1)
  ArcMass (arcGroup*(systemMass*.25))
  UsesAmmo (Y/N)
    AmmoType (Salvo Missile, ER Salvo Missile)
  HasCharge (Y/N)
    HowCharged (Time, Roll)
    ChargeAmt (1/Turn, d6)
    ChargeGoal (2, 6)
  Holds (Salvo Missiles, Fighters, Mass)
  NonDamageEffects



-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org	
-----

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jones, Tim [SMTP:tjones@adaptivebroadband.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2000 3:03 AM
> To:	'gzg-l@scotch.csua.berkeley.edu'
> Subject:	[FT] GZF - XML
> 
> >The GZF has been helpful from a design vantage point.  I think it
would
> be 
> >a rather straightforward exercise to convert and update the GZF to an
XML
> >version.  Parsing would be simplified immensely.
> 
> I came to the same conclusion but when raised on the computer list
> got a negatory.
> 
> >Oops...  I mentioned parsing.  Time to move this to the computer
list! 
> >Has the computer list been archived like the GZG list?
> 
> No archive and I've been unsubbed (not any more) since I moved jobs 
> 
> I think we should be allowed a little public geek speak here as it is 
> vaguely on topic ;-0
> 
> --
> Tim
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:16 2000
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From: "Bell, Brian K" <Brian_Bell@dscc.dla.mil>
To: "'gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu'" <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Subject: RE: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 08:20:50 -0500 
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I would like a copy of your cheatsheets if you have them in electronic
form (html, word, text).

Please contact me off-list at the address below.
If you need proof that I own SG, we can decide on an acceptable proof
(scan of SG page, first/last word on a particular page, etc.).

-----
Brian Bell
bkb@beol.net
http://www.ftsr.org/sg2/       
-----

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Allan Goodall [SMTP:awg@sympatico.ca]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2000 8:56 PM
> To:	gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
> Subject:	Re: Mobile infantry in SG2
> 
> On Wed, 06 Dec 2000 19:37:28 -0600, "Joseph Arnold" <jdarnold@siu.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> >Yeah, like we actually *read* the rules. Hah!
> 
> *L* I did. In detail.
> 
> I decided earlier this year to make a "cheat sheet" of weird and
arcane
> rules.
> What ended up happening was that I created an "Advanced Reference
Summary"
> sheet. I was able to put ALL the rules on 5 sheets of paper (2 double
> sided
> pages, and one single sided page). I went through the rules rather
> thoroughly
> as I wanted to put page number references against all the rules. 
> 
> One of these days I should take the page number references, anyway,
and
> create
> an index for SG2. I'm about halfway there as it is. 
> 
> 
> Allan Goodall 		 awg@sympatico.ca
> Goodall's Grotto:  http://www.vex.net/~agoodall
> 
> "Surprisingly, when you throw two naked women with sex
> toys into a living room full of drunken men, things 
> always go bad." - Kyle Baker, "You Are Here"
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:16 2000
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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2000 14:18:02 +0000
From: Tony Francis <tony.francis@kuju.com>
Organization: Kuju Entertainment
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KH.Ranitzsch@t-online.de wrote:
> 
>  > > >http://www.tridentmilitary.com/WorldCamouflage.htm
> >
> > Is this site live at the moment ? It times out when I try.
> >
> Worked for me right now. Or try their main site:
> http://www.tridentmilitary.com/index.html

Still no luck - I'll try later at home

Tony
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Subject: RE: Mobile infantry in SG2
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***
I have dones something similar for Dirtside. I ran off a 5 pages
single-sided and we place them on a bulletin board we keep handy to the
battle as a quick reference. I did not put number or page references
against them though, that is a great idea.
***

Well, the point is that a sheet with JUST page references means the
original ruleset is still required, protecting Jon's interests.

I must say the idea of such organization for the DSII and SGII certainly
appeals to me. I've always had the feeling they were more than I could
bite
off at one go. I always felt the writing was clear and friendly, just
that
trying to get my mind around how it fit together just never lasted
longer
than my attention span, diverted by moving to and fro in the book(s).

A one-page description/flowchart with references for more details is
probably an ideal. It requires the book for learning and resolving
exceptions, but allows a visual cue while playing. DSII has it's turn
sequence found on pg 17, and that part isn't the step-by-step simplicity
I
guess I've grown to expect out of a game I'm trying to learn.

It's unfortunate that such thresholds usually mean someone simply drops
the
whole idea rather than picking it up again at a later date.

By the way, for those who might feel the same way, do you think it's
because players are expected, even if unintentionally, to have a
familiarity with how other games systems work, or are we supposed to be
creative in working out those details ourselves? ;->=

The_Beast
From - Wed Dec 13 16:38:17 2000
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2000 07:21:26 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Saturday Game, Cupertino, CA USA
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
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Hello Everyone:
  This is a reminder that the South Bay Gaming Group will be having
their 
monthly meeting this Saturday (the 9th of Dec) at the Cupertino Public
Library.
  
The fun and games starts at roughly 10:00 and go till 10:00 PM at night.
  The Full thrust game will be starting at roughly 11:00 AM. It will
probably b
e 
various combination of human versus kra'vak.
  For more information on location etc go to the web site
  http://www.armory.com/~sbgc/
  
  John W. Fox

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