RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
From: "Stark, Luke" <lcs@i...>
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 14:49:45 -0500
Subject: RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
Hey there,
> First, it's the miniatures and not the games that make the
> money. A business case would have to be developed to see if a
> computer game would just canibalize the miniatures market.
> This wasn't a big deal with DBA Online, as the DBA rules were
> written by someone not involved in miniatures. But I know I
> have lost some interest in painting DBA armies when I can
> play more quickly and easily on the computer.
This may be true and I have no immediate answer for it. You seem to be
coming from the angle that GZG would develope this game. Certainly they
could, but I said in my original post I had planned to do it myself (ala
your 'labour of love') and had no plans to market this in any form other
than a freely available tool for networked game play (baring JT
requesting
that I do *not* do it that way...he may want something entirely
different if
he wants anything at all...)
I do not know if a computer game can canibalize the miniatures market.
Has
something like this occured before? I would be interested if anyone has
any
facts...links...whatever...
> Second, creating a computer game even for something as simple
> as FT takes a long time. Jon isn't a computer person. He'd
> have to farm it out. Would it have to look like current
> computer games with 3D rendered graphics? Or would it just be
> a "bare bones" thing? Regardless, it would be a very big
> project. It would need to have excellent graphics to attract
> the non-FT playing mainstream. Without it, it would just
> appeal to us FT players and not make back the money it would
> take to create it. Oh, and it would canibalize the miniatures
> sales (see the first point).
I had started this thread with the idea that I would be developing the
app
for free. And as for 3D rendered graphics...I'm shooting for 2D,
functional
and ugly in the first revision (heheheh) art can come later. My priority
is
to get something out that will let me play a networked game with the
Full
Thrust rules and a minimum of hassle.
> Several people have done Play By E-mail games, me being one
> of them. I have a set of spreadsheets I used form my game.
> Even still, it was a fair bit of manual effort to make it
> work. I started building a program to handle the processing,
> and got quite far along with it, but lost the program in a
> move. I haven't tried going back and redoing it. The amount
> of time I spent on it tells me that it's not going to be
> feasible creating a program for e-mail games unless it's
> someone's labour of love.
The email interface has been mentioned to me several times today, and
while
I know it works well, I'm looking for something a little more 'in yer
face'.
I think that your points are certainly valid though. Again let me
restate
that I'm not in any way attempting to replace the table top, nor do I
wish
to adversly affect GZG's profit margins. I'm just a programmer who wants
to
make a tool to simplify my own personal gaming. I brought my intentions
to
the list because I'm looking for ways for the community and JT to
benenfit
from my efforts. I'm not attempting to become a game publisher, nor am I
writing a Full Thrust Conversion intended to be marketed as such by
anyone.
My apologies if the above sounds pissy, I assure you I'm not, I just
want to
make sure my language is precise. *wink*
-L
From - Wed Dec 06 17:41:53 2000
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From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
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Cc: "Glenn Patterson" <farquar@intergate.bc.ca>
References: <F021B784A8C9D411A66F0002A52CA9360A50C2@nt-exc1.arepa.com>
Subject: Re: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
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Commander to Pilot>Delurk on 3... 1...2...3!
Pilot to Commander>Delurk aqquired sir!
Commander to Guns>target Sky
Guns to Commander>Sky targeted
Commander>FIRE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just to add my point of view.
I'm interested in some thing I can use over a Modem/LAN/PBEM etc.
I've tried FTMAP but don't seem to have the savy or patience to make
it work.
So anything that would let me
-map star systems
-map planets
-allocate & track build points
-build ships
-assemble fleets
-track ships/fleets
-map battles
-handle/track damage to ships/fleets
-build/track ground forces
-etc
would be a great boon espicially if it was in a functional form and
easily
used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Commander to Pilot> Engage Relurker
Pilot>Relurker engaged
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stark, Luke" <lcs@intonet.com>
To: <gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
> SNIP>
> The email interface has been mentioned to me several times today, and
while
> I know it works well, I'm looking for something a little more 'in yer
face'.
> I think that your points are certainly valid though. Again let me
restate
> that I'm not in any way attempting to replace the table top, nor do I
wish
> to adversly affect GZG's profit margins. I'm just a programmer who
wants
to
> make a tool to simplify my own personal gaming. I brought my
intentions to
> the list because I'm looking for ways for the community and JT to
benenfit
> from my efforts. I'm not attempting to become a game publisher, nor am
I
> writing a Full Thrust Conversion intended to be marketed as such by
anyone.
>
> My apologies if the above sounds pissy, I assure you I'm not, I just
want
to
> make sure my language is precise. *wink*
>
> -L
>
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
Subject: Mobile infantry in SG2
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2000 14:39:44 -0600
From: Andy Cowell <andy@cowell.org>
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I couldn't find it the other night while we were playing-- how do you
handle dismounted mobile infantry in SG2? I treated the vehicle as a
detached unit, which seemed to work okay, but I wondered what most
people did, or if the rules covered it and I just missed it in the
heat of battle?
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From: stiltman@teleport.com
Subject: Re: [OT] [HUMOR] AmmoStorm(TM)
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In-Reply-To:
<417DEC289A05D4118408000102362E0A34D01B@host-253.bitheads.com> from
"Barclay, Tom" at Dec 05, 2000 02:27:04 PM
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> Serious concerns have been raised within the Logistics community about
the
> resupply of 10M round cannisters. Weighing 27 kg each, each
infantryman is
> expected to be able to deploy with two of these cannisters in addition
to
> the usual 60 kg of other kit. This means a standard unit of fire is
likely
> to be around 150kg per man.
Heh... I got about this far and was immediately consumed with laughter
as I
imagined this poor infantryman who's finally collapsed exhausted with
lugging
all this metal around and is flopped over on his back like a beetle
turned
upside down, with his arms and legs wiggling around in suitably humorous
fashion because he can't get this load that's half again his own weight
off
the ground. It'd probably be quite effective in an anti-aircraft role
as
every pilot who happens to look through a scope of some sort at the
ground
positions sends his craft into a tailspin from laughing so hard. :)
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The Stilt Man stiltman@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~stiltman/stiltman.html
< We are Microsoft Borg '98. Lower your expectations and >
< surrender your money. Antitrust law is irrelevant. >
< Competition is irrelevant. We will add your financial and >
< technological distinctiveness to our own. Your software >
< will adapt to service ours. Resistance is futile. >
From - Wed Dec 06 17:41:54 2000
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Subject: Re: Question that may be really *old*...
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2000 08:20:13 +1100
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> This combined with the bridge simulators I have seen would be fun.
Turn
> based and you can play as Fleet Commander seeing the full sensor
suites or
> as individual ship COs.
I wonder how many have heard of Bridge Crew, which was created by an
Australian and used a network (with one or two, I don't recall exactly)
main
computers to run it and dumb terminals for the bridge positions.
Basically you had the Captain who didn't have a terminal, and I think
four
other members of the bridge crew representing stations - weapons,
engines,
etc.
Then another person took on the "Game Master" role and played any enemy
ships you came across, at another PC.
I played this years ago and it was pretty good, though only a "top down"
view on a single main screen, and the stations were viewed only as text.
However it was a lot of fun as things got fast and furious, with
commands
and results flying back and forth like a "real" starship bridge.
(I have a good story about when I played Captain and faked out the GM,
but
I'll save that.. <grin>)
Well, I a quick search of an Australian based search engine turned up
the
website!
http://www.mithrilsoftware.com/bcrew.html
Check it out. :)
Jeremy Sadler
stargrunt.com webmaster
http://www.stargrunt.com
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Subject: Re: Question that may be really *old*...
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***
I wonder how many have heard of Bridge Crew, which was created by an
Australian and used a network (with one or two, I don't recall exactly)
main
computers to run it and dumb terminals for the bridge positions.
***
I saw a series of articles, later collected in a book, on the algorithms
for just such a simulation, in Interface Age, I think a US magazine, in
the
mid-to-late '70s.
I always hoped that I could learn enough VM to get this working on a
bank
of work dumb terminals.
I'll see if I can find either the mags or the book at home laters.
The_Beast
-Douglas J. Evans, curmudgeon
One World, one Web, one Program - Microsoft promotional ad
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer - Adolf Hitler
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To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: jfoster@kansas.net
Subject: Re: New firearms technology
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 22:26:15 +0000
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>There are applications where high instantaneous rates of fire are
desirable,
>but high sustained rates are not a must. Anti-missile defence and
aircraft
>cannon are two cases in point. In such applications, metal storm could
be
>used without too much of a strain on logistics.
Another possible problem: with a totally electronic firing system,
wouldn't the
weapon be highly succeptible to gang-firing if a current was induced in
the
firing mechanism? A theatre-wide EMP pulse could wreak havoc, as could
carrying
a personal weapon too near a high-current line or high-frequency radio
source,
potentially.
From - Wed Dec 06 17:41:55 2000
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Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 09:35:29 +1100
To: gzg-l@csua.berkeley.edu
From: Beth Fulton <beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au>
Subject: Re: [FT] Salvo Missile Range
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G'day guys,
Laserlight asked:
>Y'all use sensor rules? Does Derek
>use something like ash Shaulah's
>refitted to escort config/missile
>catchers (mass 8, 1 hull, thrust 6, 1
>ADFC, 3PDS)?
Yes we use sensors, but that's when you fly scouts or AWAC fighters
(some
other rules I've been nutting out for a while) out ahead to get a lock
on
before the main fleet turns up. As for missile catchers, we've played it
with them and without, either way it doesn't work.
1) To be fair to what's written you've got to figure out a system that
doesn't invalidate every design Jon's written <militaries may be
inefficient and I may love the FSE, but there's got to be a does of
moderation all round ;) >
2) Derek uses missile catchers and I bring on arsenalships so that
doesn't
really solve the problem completely either ;)
Noam wrote:
>This sounds a bit complex at first, but I think should execute pretty
simply
>in 4 steps. I hate added complexity, but think this may really be
workable...
Have you actually tried it out? Does it play as easily as you expect? I
know I've only had a quick glance, but it does sound like you've got to
keep track of a lot of things if you've launched a lot of missiles. I
often
launch 10-20 SMs if I launch at all, in larger games I'll be launching
30+
(I think my record so far was 100 at once). OK I am a bit of a stacker
rather than a net-maker, but even so keeping track of that many start
points, target distances, velocities sounds like an awful lot of work to
me
(seeings as I mostly get to play on Friday nights when my brain is
frazzled).
Nice thought though (I've been thinking about something similar for
collisions and ramming)
Noam then went onto outline some fighter rules:
>To engage any target - including other fighter
>groups, the attacking fighter
>AV has to be less than 42
So I take it you're not going to see any dogfights first turn after
launch
unless the ships are less than about class 2 range apart, either that or
your fighters spend ages chugging into battle - I guess people who play
at
higher speed could up the dogfight AFV though.
Cheers
Beth
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Elizabeth Fulton
c/o CSIRO Division of Marine Research
GPO Box 1538
HOBART
TASMANIA 7001
AUSTRALIA
Phone (03) 6232 5018 International +61 3 6232 5018
Fax 03 6232 5053 International +61 3 6232 5053
email: beth.fulton@marine.csiro.au
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From: agoodall@canada.com
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Subject: RE: FT: Question that may be really *old*...
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On Tue, 05 December 2000, "Stark, Luke" wrote:
> This may be true and I have no immediate answer for it. You seem to be
> coming from the angle that GZG would develope this game.
Well, GZG would have to be involved, even if it's just to make an "okie
dokie"
kind of a thing. If it could canibalize sales, Jon won't give his
approval (or,
at least, I think he shouldn't). If it won't, then yes, I guess he
could just
give it a stamp of approval and let it get rolled out.
>Certainly they
> could, but I said in my original post I had planned to do it myself
(ala
> your 'labour of love') and had no plans to market this in any form
other
> than a freely available tool for networked game play (baring JT
requesting
> that I do *not* do it that way...he may want something entirely
different if
> he wants anything at all...)
I guess the question is whether or not this would hurt sales. Maybe,
maybe not.
It could also help promote the game.
> I do not know if a computer game can canibalize the miniatures market.
Has
> something like this occured before? I would be interested if anyone
has any
> facts...links...whatever...
The closest I've seen is DBA Online, which I thought I mentioned. It can
be fou
nd at http://www.dbaol.com It's the online computer version of the
ancients gam
e DBA. I don't think they have stats on whether or not this has hurt
ancient mi
niatures sales.
> Again let me restate
> that I'm not in any way attempting to replace the table top, nor do I
wish
> to adversly affect GZG's profit margins. I'm just a programmer who
wants to
> make a tool to simplify my own personal gaming. I brought my
intentions to
> the list because I'm looking for ways for the community and JT to
benenfit
> from my efforts. I'm not attempting to become a game publisher, nor am
I
> writing a Full Thrust Conversion intended to be marketed as such by
anyone.
That's cool. However, Jon would be wise to tread lightly in this area.
Even a f
ree tool could hurt him if it means fewer people playing with
miniatures. On th
e other hand it might make for good support and bring more people into
the hobb
y. Hard to say. It's Jon's call. My post was just to explain the reasons
I felt
it hadn't been done before.
Allan Goodall - agoodall@canada.com
__________________________________________________________
Get your FREE personalized e-mail at http://www.canada.com
From - Wed Dec 06 17:41:56 2000
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From: Brian Burger <yh728@victoria.tc.ca>
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Subject: Re: GZG-NCC (was Re: Winter War 28)
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If you want a real GZG-NCC, call it North Coast Con. Hold it in
Churchill,
Manitoba, on the shores of Hudson's Bay in the middle of winter.
People who loose games get fed to the polar bears.
That would be entertaining.
Brian - yh728@victoria.tc.ca -
- http://warbard.iwarp.com/games.html -