Re: THe SML vs Banzi Jammer Debate

Okay Alan,

I was with you till you said that SML's are too powerful if you 
completely remove Banzi Jammers.  Are you'all ready....... Yup..

[Large Caliber Flaming On]
Frigging Lame Pansy's....... you're afraid to loose quickly!
I say lets delimb ya'll........ SML's are cool... unfortunately not cool

enough really.	Why.........
[Flame mode off]

Okay, back to some logic + what I've experienced in my groups play. 
I'll 
modify this to say:

Yup "sub" type SML boats have seen considerable use in my group 
(Waldburg-M type of design).  However, we did use the Free Cal Tex 
Kennedy Class missle cruiser quite extensively (Mass 90, 4 SML's (2 
rounds of SML's each ))... I've got an updated design I'll have to post 
at some point.	We use cinematic movement, 6" lock on radius and tend to

use either fleet book designs or our own setups (Sometimes against fleet

book designs).	And Yup... everyone seems to like the NSL designs.

FSE standard designs bite.  They're fast, have reasonable SML launch's 
but don't have enough SML's to do the job they're ment to do.  Aka hit 
hard and fast for 2-3 turns and then scoot.  They sacrifice additional 
protection/salvo's so they have the drives to run.  Makes more sense
from 
a campaign perspective then a 1 off perspective.  Our 1 off missle boats

have average thrust (4) and tend not to be larger then cruisers.  We try

to pack as many salvos as we can in them.  Why you all ask?

Yup there 2 things that SML's do really well:
1.  Reduce Opponents movement choices :
	What do I mean by this.  Yup you can use SML's to make an
opponent want
	to move in a certain direction ( great for setting up a 2 prong 
attack
	or a feignt... but really expensive in terms of expended weapons

mass )
2.  Hit hard and (hopefully) destroy ships in 1 turn:
	What does this mean.  Just that the SML (if it can overcome PDS
and
	class-1 defensive fire) has the potential to way last to your 
enemy's
	ships in 1 turn.  However you need to examine the disadvantages
very 
	carefully(*).

What do they do poorly:
1.  Run out of ammo really quickly:
	You usually don't want more then 3 rounds of fire from you
launchers.
	Usually you loose the launcher or the mag by the 2nd threshold
(Murphy's
	law there... which is usually by the 2nd or 3rd round of intense

fire
	hopefully you've shot the wad by then... )
(Hum... hum.... Alan said BJ hummmmm....  Errr Fire!  Fire!  Fire! )
2.  Get Defended Against:
	The average SML salvo does ~13 pts damage lets say (3.5 missles
hit 
	roughly/strike doing roughly 3.5pts damage each or so...)
	An average PDS mount shoots down .8 missles .  An average
Class-1
	beam shoots down .33 missles (Not counting rerolls).  You're 
average
	FTFB cruiser can fire 2 pds, 2 class-1's so we're talking about
	-2.4 missles ( or maybe 1.1 missles hit doing 3.5 pts/each ) or 
3.8pts
	of damage for that salvo.  Now if I have an 2*Class-2 beam (4 
mass)
	vs 4mass of SMR (or 5 mass for 1 SML + 1 round mag).  I can do
	.8 * 2 (1.6 at 24" or 3.2 at 12", not counting reroll damage)  
And I
	Can keep doing this!  What That's not fair... WAH!! WAH!!! WAH!!
3.  Select their targets
	(This one doesn't make too much sense to me, even from a PSB
pov, don't
	 we have guided missles/wire guided stuff now!	DOn't we have 
fire and
	 forget missles that are pretty small now!  Can't we say that 
SML's
	 can distinquish targets [ that's how we play in my group ]. 
But 
this
	 does lead to how do you fix MT missles...
	 (We're using mv 36"/turn, 3 turn endurance, 2pt max heading 
change/
	  turn.  Armored (treat like hvy fighters).  Follow your orders 
... but
	  no one really uses them... )
	Now this is where the Banzi Jammers really ruin a neat weapon
system.
	For the SML to overcome DISADV 2, it needs to have a good ADV 2
point
	to it.	Without the ability to strike hard at its intended
target,
	why would you ever take them?  Yup I know, 1/2 arm, 1/2 hull 
crap.. but
	P-torps do that.  And you can keep firing them... no stinking 
ammo
	crap.  Look I don't think SML's are overpowered.... why... see 
below.

[ Rant and Rave mode on ]
Our group has found the following to be true of SML fleets...

1.  If you use them...(or fighters) and your opponent has a head on his 
shoulders... most ships start sporting 2-3 pds+ and some adfc's.  What 
then happens is that you need to put a lot of salvo's on target in 1
turn 
to actually damage something!

2.  SML fleets need to have roughly (Ships payload mass I'm talking
here)
	30%+ ships mass in SML's to force opponent movement (or make him
sweat)
	50%+ ships mass to inflict damage on a well designed pds/adfc
force
	     This is also the point where you have a chance of
vaporizing
	     big ships with SML fire and might actually have SML's
contribute
	     to your win.  However this is roughly were the FSE are 
sitting
	     And this seems to be a crappy design point.  You don't
quite have
	     the SML firepower to plunk down on a turn by turn basis to 
really
	     destroy enough enemy ships that your remaining beam
armament will
	     let you finish them off ... you've got to fight 2-3 rounds
then 
	     run when you're out of missles unless you got really lucky.
	70%+ ships mass in SML's.  Plus you need a lot of SML launch
capabilty
	     At this point you can be a terror.  You can and should be
able to
	     Wack several opponents ships in 1 turn, Even if they're
well
	     built/defended.  However, you MUST destory the majority of
his
	     fleet by the time you're out of missles or you're dog meat!
 What
	     does this mean
	
		[ Yup... ask that cock Jason kid... he had like 3 kenedy

		   cruisers (4 SML's + 2 rounds fire nothing else though
), a
		   couple of Waldberg-M's and I think 2 frigates or
something
		   like that.  He was fighting an NSL force that had a
BDN,
		   2 CE's, 2 CL's, a couple FF's and a DD or two.  Both 
		   CL's had -1 class-2 for +2 pds.  I think he vaporized

the
		   BDN, one of the CE's, and an FF or two, hurt the DD 
and both
		   CL's.  However I still managed to vaporize his entire

fleet
		   ... he was out of missles, and all he had really was
a 
		   couple of class-2 and class-1 beams.  I had armored
ships 
		   with probably 2-3*'s his beam fire power still.  He
didn't
		   realize that he didn't quite inflict enough damage in
the
		   2 turns of intense fire... And in those 2 turns I
watched
		   The BDN vaporized in 1 turn, a CE the next along with
a 
		   couple o' FF's and DD's!  It was pretty nuts.  But I
was a
		   Stuborn SOB... and yup  We agreed the fight would be
till
		   a commander decided to retreat ( 50% pt level ) which
by
		   all rights I should have... I just decided my pissed
off 
		   force realized that I still had more FP and I'd fight
my
		   Way through them.  Turns out doing that I wasted his
		   FF's and started hurting his missle cruisers and
there 
		   really wasn't much he could do about it.  I think 1
missle
		   curser and a couple of the Waldberg's survived but
that was
		   it.	All told and done I still had more points in
ships 
		   left then he did. ]

	The above... Yup that seems to happen an awful lot at the 50% <
level... 
infact usually its worse... they didn't do anywhere enough damage in the

SML fight turns to warrent the mass that they invested in the SML 
payload.  And yes when you're going with straight missle fleets and your

opponent knows it and puts on a lot of PDS... you'll end up wasting a
lot 
of SML's just to take down 1 or two ships.

[ we have some fleets of large ships with nothing but pulse torps, 
screen-1, slow, armor, strong hull, class-1's, pds, and adfc.  Most of 
the ships have 6+ pds and lots o'class-1's.]  You get a couple of ships 
like this in close formation and you can kiss your SML fleet good
bye.... 
They can't really hurt a lot of adfc pds protected ships. ]

3.  Speed can just about completely eliminate the threat of SML's.  If 
your opponent is traveling fast enough... you're pretty screwed.... you 
usually will end up wasting your SML's trying to hit something, or they 
expload in your racks because you were waiting too long for a good shot.

So what does this all mean....

1.  Get rid of Banzi Jammers.. they're lame and not in the spirit of the

rules.
2.  Let SML's pick their target
3.  Know still that fighters seem to be a better weapon then SML's 
........
4.  SML's are big SHOCK weapons... Waste a couple ships in a round or
two 
then
    whoops.... the outnumbered beam/pulse torp ships start kicking the 
stuffing
    out of a lot of lamely armed/defended ships.

Just some thoughts and Flames to get the fires burning.......;)

Chuck

P.S.:  Actually I'm really interested in seeing how NOAM can get SML's
to 
work around Banzai Jammers and win.  Hell I'm really interested to see 
someone win with the FSE on a consistant or majority basis (like 3+/6 
battles)... I can't seem to win very much with FSE... only with my own 
missle fleets and even then its like a crap shoot.

P.S.2:	I admit it really sucks to watch a large chunk of your fleet, 
especially the big capital ships go BOOM! in 1 friggin turn.  Its really

demoralizing... but when you start to realize that if they've got enough

missles to do that... they don't have enough beam fire power to finish 
you off usually.  By then you're mopping the floor against large fresh 
ships with weak hulls usually that have corvete/frigate fire power.  So 
what if you're outnumbered and they've got a lot of big ships left... 
they usually end up dying pretty quickly and don't really do all that 
much to your ships.