Re: Out of Ammo and Shotguns

	Howdy!

On Wed, 14 Jul 1999, Thomas Barclay wrote:

> ** As for jamming, I have spent plenty of time both on the range and
> playing with dirty military long arms that aren't cleaned by clowns
> who put them away dirty... and I've found real "stop you dead" jams
> such as a broken firing pin, a burst casing, a real ejector problem,
> or some such serious stoppage to be somewhat rare. Occaisionally, the
> weapons will misfire or misfeed, but most of the time, recocking is
> all that is required to clear the weapon. That is so fast it wouldn't
> be represented even within the context of FMA. It is an ingrained
> immediate action drill.

	Most of the problems I have faced on the range with police or
civilians is the ammo.	LOTS of problems with police loads.  Usually
duds
or "smokestacks".  Never had the misffortune of a real "stop you dead"
jam....so far.

 
> > ** Having said that, if you combined my above idea with Adrian's and
> said
<snip>

	Some permutation of that idea is cool.	The only problem is that
the firepower directly influences the chance to go "out of action".  You
may just want to simplify it by saying "if you roll a 1 on the quality
die, roll your quality die again to the side; if another 1 is rolled,
then
something has happened".  This way, the event is dependent on solely the
quality of the firer.  OR, you could have some sort of special scenario
threshold, much like the motivation levels in SGII.  If you are playing
a
gang, your chance to "malfunction" should be higher than a spec-ops
unit.

> Ken, you made some interesting assertions about shotguns. I won't
> disagree that at closer ranges, spread is not much of a factor (the
> shot tends to hit the same target). Mind you, I'd sure like to see the
> data you use to support your idea (if you have some in particular
> sources which you could quote - I have a gut feeling you are right
> under some constraints but I'd like to see hard data).

	Some of the better references on shotgun ballistics and
wounding;

	R. M. Wilhelm
	General Considerations of Firearms Identification and Ballistics

	W.U. Spitz
	Gunshot Trauma

	R. S. Fisher
	Shotgun Wounds

	A. Lester
	Medical evidence in fatal gunshot injuries (Am J. Clin Path 23)

	R. Breitenecker
	Shotgun Wound Patterns (Am J. Clin Path 52)

	Breitenecker and Senior
	Shotgun Wound Patterns: An Experimental Study (J For Sciences
12)

	J. B. Coates
	Wound Ballistics

	P. F. Guerin
	Shotgun Wounds (J. For Sciences 5)

	K. Winland, A. Ross, M. Groh, M. Iscan, and J.H. Davis
	Projectile Trauma (Florida Scientist 55)

	The above focus mostly on shotgun ballistics or wounding.
Knight's book (Forensic Pathology) is good, but the shotgun section is
adequate, at best.  The last reference is so-so, but since I was senior
author, I just had to cite it. :)

 >I also bet that
> most of your data (if it comes from Law Enforcement sources) would
> feature a .12ga semi-auto or pump firing 00 buck. If you fired smaller
> shot, the spread might be increased. If I'm not mistaken, most combat
> shotguns will be modified choke. A Full choke double barrelled or
> sawed off shotgun surely has spread even firing 00 buck, and an
> autoshotgun will have one heck of a lot of spread. Heck, that was the
> POINT of the sawed off shotgun, so I think you do sort of have to
> model spread effects. At medium and longer ranges even with a modified
> choke, the spread could be noticeable. Now in support of your point,
> many games have made shotgun spread a menace out of reasonable
> proportion. But you need it for gangers and even for other shotguns at
> range.

	Yes, at long ranges a sawed-off with small shot will have a
wider
spread, but its wounding potential is pathetic.  Most of forensic
(military and civilian) modeling is done with 00 buck, as this offers
some
of the best wounding potential.  I have dealt with about 30 or so
shotgun
cases since 1989, and almost all were 00 or close.  I have had
experience
with several people shot with birdshot or 06 buck, but as they did not
die, they didn't end up on my table.

 > > Ryan Fisk made a good argument of more or less what I said here,
> although he didn't mention an additional round of some significance to
> shotguns: Flechette. Military shotguns firing flechette have (with
> relative ease) (or so I recall) torn to fragments most modern
> ballistic cloth body armour. The sharp flechette has better ranged
> characteristics than the shot and will sliver its way through much
> armour. A truly nasty round. Well worth installation in military
> combat shotguns. I don't know if you can fire it from an autoshotgun
> though. I hope not, or whoever is in front of the atchison, SPAS or
> H&K when it cuts loose on full auto with flechette is gonna look like
> hamburger.

	Flechette has been problematic, and I don't believe any military
or law enforcement agnecy has been issued them.  I know some law
enforcement aganecies have been playing around with a sabot shell for
shotguns.  Sort of an anti-vehicular thang.... :)

	Ken