[fh] nac vexilliology was Re: Awards and ANthems(and now some background) [OT] [HIST]

On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Thomas Barclay wrote:
> Thomas spake thusly upon matters weighty: 
> >  the us
> > flag being modified by the replacement of the starry quadrant with a
union
> > jack, of course 
> I like the idea for the us flag. 

i nicked it from an episode of 'sliders'. the one, predictably, where
the
british won the war of independence.

> > a simpified form of this, suitable for a non-denominational,
in-touch,
> > pluralist monarchy as that of 2160 is (un)likely to be, would be to
> > simplify lions to horizontal bars, the lion-in-a-box to a hollow
square,
> > and the harp to a quarter-circle, concave side pointing northeast.
this is
> > the logo i've used for nac ships when i've needed one, and it looks
quite
> > smart.
> I think I like the figures.... and I think one of the english panes 
> should be something american.... like an eagle in silver on a red and 
> white striped background.... 

well, this is not a national symbol, it is a personal one, belonging to
the monarch. it reflects the heraldry of the ancestors of our current
royal family. sort of. now, whether the personal arms of the monarch
will
find use as the state arms of the commonwealth is a different matter.

anyway, in heraldry, white and silver are the same, so you can't really
do
an overlay such as you suggest. this stems from the fact that silver and
gold are hard to do on shields, flags, etc.

> Or maybe just something simple, that acknowledges that it is 
> impossible to represent the US, Canada, Rep of Quebec, 
> Ireland, Scotland, N Ireland, Wales, England, Mexico, and all of 
> South America within one flag.

good point well made.

> Maybe just a Gold Crown on a Red 
> Field.

the problem is that this is a new symbol. one the one hand, this is the
*new* anglian commonwealth we're discussing; on the other hand, i think
an
more established symbol would be preferable; on the gripping hand, the
stylised crown is quite widely used - it is (or was) engraved on all
pint 
and half-pint glasses. i think that the crown - in any combination of
colours and with any supplementary symbol beneath it - would be a
versatile and recognisable nac symbol. obviously, gold would be a
preferred colour for the crown, but if it was to be on a blue navy
uniform, it would go on a blue background. the background for the
national
flag might concievably be the union jack or the royal standard. or just
a
plain field.

> Then in each country, a figure is placed under the crown to 
> indicate 'under the protection of the crown'. In Canada, a maple 
> leaf. In USA, an eagle. In Ireland, a Harp.

ulster (if the south escaped evil british clutches once again) - could
be
a red hand; this is a traditional ulster symbol, god knows why. probably
stained with the blood of catholics or something jolly like that :-(.

> In Wales, something 
> stolen from someone (okay, just kidding - really!).

wales - a dragon.

> In Scotland, a 
> Lion. In England, nothing.

scotland - could be a thistle
england - three lions (as in 'on a shirt')

> In South America, whatever symbols would 
> be appropriate. In Quebec, a Fleur De Lis. 

this is quite a cool idea.

> And commonwealth vessels would display the Gold-Crown-On-Red flag of 
> the Commonwealth and this would be the shoulder flashes of NAC 
> forces. 

well, there is an old symbol that was used by the war department up
until
the 1950s, which is derived from the arms of the family which held the
office of marshal of england (or whatever) in the middle ages, which is
in
turn a stylised arrowhead:

    #
   ###
  # # #
 #  #  #
#   #	#

which isn't too bad, although it isn't terribly distinctive.

(interlude: i look up 'english royal symbols' on the web, and i get a
million hits on the arms of canada - chance, or *yet another* sinister
canuk conspiracy?)

btw, the flag of the current commonwealth is really poor - a blue field,
a
gold stylised globe and a set of rays which go around 3/4 of it, making
a
'c' shape. very corporate.

what if the former usa (minus cal-tex) has been broken up into more
manageable chunks, like new england, the southeast, the midwest, etc. do
these areas, larger than a state, have their own symbols? do such
divisions even exist in the american worldview?

so, the nac-as-a-whole symbol is the crown, and the following things
have
the following symbols positioned under the crown:

england - three lions
scotland - lion rampant / thistle
wales - dragon
ireland/ulster - harp / red hand
canada -  maple leaf
former usa - eagle
quebec - fleur de lys
brazil - astral globe (off current flag) etc
army - war department arrowhead
navy - anchor ?
parliament - portcullis

etc. all fairly straightforward.

Tom
who is very happy that he finally got to use a Motie grammar construct