Re: GZG DS2 Mikko: Genres for DS2.

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Alex Shvarts, Andrew & Brian Martin wrote:

> >"An alarm pinged to warn him that a laser rangefinder painted
> >Deathdealer's armour. The gunnery computer was already rotating the
turret,
> >while a pulsing red highlight arrowed the source: an anti-tank
missile
> >launched twelve-hundred meters away..." - David Drake, Rolling Hot,
1989
>     Notice the date? His older stories use wireguided missiles! 

Actually, the older *stories* don't use missiles at all.

>In this later story, he's upgraded his missile technology! 

Doesn't matter. It's still the same Slammerverse. Maybe you should read
all the stories before you draw conclusions. Anyway, the stories are
*not* written in chronological order. I can, and will if needed, find a
Drake quote to that effect. 

Consider the story "Standing Down", clearly storywise the last
"Slammers" 
story (before they turned into Frisian Defense Force for The Sharp End),
was written in 1979. 

> But the way that the tank
> is dealing with the missile is still the same, which is take out the
> operator and the missile as the missile is launching, not as the
missile is
> about to impact! 

I really hate to do this again, but did I make you actually read the
passage in question? I didn't quote *all* of it, but I will if that's
the
only way to get through to you.

I don't have my books with me, but if you had read it, you'd know Birdie
expected the "APFC" belt to stop the actual missile. Aiming at the
shooter
had a purely punitive function.

I will quote the rest of it if you really want to.

>     Unfortunately, this laser beam rider missile system still doesn't
match
> the capabilities of DSII GMS, which are high speed, fire and forget,
self
> homing missiles. 

I could also dig up Birdie's death scene from the same story, where he's
done in by a quite self-homing artillery round -- but you'd just argue
it
doesn't count as high speed so I give up.

> missile system, but of two separate missile systems. This clearly
implies
> that the guided system is slower, while the hypervelocity system is
faster
> but not guided.

So? 
 
>     Thanks for the quote! I was going to quote it back to you! It's in
the
> short story collection I also have. Where it ALSO speaks about wire
guided
> missiles. You need to read it more carefully. The technique of firing
at the
> operator and the missile with main gun and MG is a technique developed
by
> the Israelis in the Arab-Israeli conflicts and transferred to the
Americans.
> David Drake has logically extended this technique to fire light speed
power
> guns at the missile operator, so that the operator ducks and the
missile
> misses.

The guidance method, which I did note but chose to omit as irrelevant as
it is quite clearly indicated that it is the MISSILE that's being shot
down, not the operator. 

> >>	 HS combat cars were open topped because they were based on a
old
> Soviet
> >> apc which was open topped. I get the impression David Drake didn't
like
> >> M113s!
> >
> >"Hammer's vehicles were designed around the M48s and [M113] ACAVs I'd
> >ridden..." - David Drake, Afterword to Counting the Cost, 1987
>     That's right, but if you look closer in the stories, you will find
that
> the combat cars are completely open topped at the rear, which is not
quite
> the case with the M113 and the M113 ACAV, which had hatches. David
Drake has
> extended it quite logically and completely open topped the rear of the
> combat cars. 

Let's see. You said: "HS combat cars were open topped because they were
based on a old Soviet apc which was open topped." David Drake said:
"Hammer's vehicles were designed around the M48s and [M113] ACAVs I'd
ridden..." 

I wonder which of you is the better authority on the subject? 

Where do the words "soviet apc" appear in Drake's sentence? And, btw,
which soviet APC would that be? M3 halftrack? 

Besides, I think the ACAV is open topped unlike most other M113
variants.
And yes, I can dig that up too.

> The driver has overhead protection, the soldiers don't!

Actually, a roof over the fighting compartment is mentioned in Rolling
Hot. Not very thick, though.

>     Yes, they used Nukes and chemicals against others but themselves
were
> not capable of resisting it, which is what I meant to say. 

Communication tends to be easier if you actually say what you mean to
say. I have no psychic ability to telepathically know what you meant.

>     Three days neutralising it. No NBC protection equipment! Not that
they
> needed it, of course, in that situation! In another story in the short
story
> collection, they detonate a gas shell in a alien lair and blow the gas
> deeper into it. None of the team put on protective clothing or closed
> hatches. 

Do you really want me to dig up quotes about the helmet filter system?

>     Also their Nuclear dampers, while not described that well,
obviously
> weren't cheap. They were not used by plattoons of vehicles. They
seemed to
> be a large, expensive item of gear. In that same story, no nuclear
damper
> was provided to the troops. Therefore, no nuclear protection.
Therefore, as
> whole, HS were not NBC capable just NBC armed.

Obviously not cheap? Would you mind backing up your allegations with
some
sort of reference?

Did it ever cross your mind that perhaps the device has some sort of
range
and you don't need to equip every individual tank with one? 
 
Can you find a reference where a Slammer is cursing his lack of nuke
protection, fearing the mushroom cloud?

>     Yes, there were helicopters, but no planes that could fly NOE in
his
> experience! 

But you said "NOE helicopters"...

>     Sorry, it's not shooting an incoming missile. It's shooting at the
> operator and the missile while it's starting to launch. It's a logical
> extension of the Israeli technique. Read further and see that the
computer
> control is causing the tribarrel to fire at the satellite detected
launching
> flash, NOT at the missile in full flight. This is significantly easier
to
> do than to intercept a high speed, fire and forget, missile, just
before it
> impacts with your vehicle. The PDS system shoots down missiles as they
are
> about to impact NOT as they launch.

We obviously don't share the same comprehension of written English. 

I give up. Maybe I should attend the Phil Barker Writing School for
Dimwitted 8-year Olds or something...
 
Let's just agree our visions of the Slammerverse are not identical,
which is anyway irrelevant to the original discussion.

-- 
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